Metrics Schemtrics - RecruitingBlogs2024-03-28T12:06:53Zhttps://recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?commentId=502551%3AComment%3A575445&feed=yes&xn_auth=noNow THAT is funny!!!!
Sandra…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-05:502551:Comment:5784182009-03-05T23:02:38.031ZClaudia Fausthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/ClaudiaFaust
Now THAT is funny!!!!<br />
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<cite>Sandra McCartt said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A578406&x=1%23502551Comment578406#502551Comment578406"><div>"It's not just one car," said Herman. "It's hundreds of them!"</div>
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Now THAT is funny!!!!<br />
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<cite>Sandra McCartt said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A578406&x=1%23502551Comment578406#502551Comment578406"><div>"It's not just one car," said Herman. "It's hundreds of them!"</div>
</blockquote> The problem with this philoso…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-05:502551:Comment:5774442009-03-05T13:47:49.227ZClaudia Fausthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/ClaudiaFaust
The problem with this philosophy is that metrics, like legal contracts, are generally a non-issue when all is well. What about when it's not? Where do you begin to fix the problem? How do you benchmark below-average performance? Do you compare only within your team? Or more generally across your industry? Working on instinct alone - just like working on metrics alone - is a very slippery slope, my friend. I think I'd add a weekly lottery ticket as a backup to my income plan.<br />
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<cite>Sandra…</cite>
The problem with this philosophy is that metrics, like legal contracts, are generally a non-issue when all is well. What about when it's not? Where do you begin to fix the problem? How do you benchmark below-average performance? Do you compare only within your team? Or more generally across your industry? Working on instinct alone - just like working on metrics alone - is a very slippery slope, my friend. I think I'd add a weekly lottery ticket as a backup to my income plan.<br />
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<cite>Sandra McCartt said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?x=1%23502551Comment577405&id=502551%3ATopic%3A574468&page=1#502551Comment576801"><div>Trends would seem to make a lot more sense than the tactics and drill. Bottom line is if it works do it.</div>
</blockquote> Um, carrot and stick? Or is t…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-05:502551:Comment:5774322009-03-05T13:27:06.319ZAmitai Givertzhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/Recruitomatic
Um, carrot and stick? Or is that just donkey's?<br />
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<cite>Steve Levy said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A577427&x=1#502551Comment577427"><div>Ami, and how are prized thoroughbreds trained?<br></br> <cite>Amitai Givertz said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A577424&x=1#502551Comment577424"><div>Sandra,…</div>
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Um, carrot and stick? Or is that just donkey's?<br />
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<cite>Steve Levy said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A577427&x=1#502551Comment577427"><div>Ami, and how are prized thoroughbreds trained?<br/> <cite>Amitai Givertz said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A577424&x=1#502551Comment577424"><div>Sandra, rather than nitpicking on each point that I could have issue with let me agree with the underlying premise of your argument which I understand and relate to.<br/> <br/> I will say this...</div>
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</blockquote> Ami, and how are prized thoro…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-05:502551:Comment:5774272009-03-05T13:18:04.991ZSteve Levyhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/Dieselevy
Ami, and how are prized thoroughbreds trained?<br />
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<cite>Amitai Givertz said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A577424&x=1#502551Comment577424"><div>Sandra, rather than nitpicking on each point that I could have issue with let me agree with the underlying premise of your argument which I understand and relate to.<br></br> <br></br> I will say this...<br></br>
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As you know, the purse for a race horse who comes…</div>
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Ami, and how are prized thoroughbreds trained?<br />
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<cite>Amitai Givertz said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A577424&x=1#502551Comment577424"><div>Sandra, rather than nitpicking on each point that I could have issue with let me agree with the underlying premise of your argument which I understand and relate to.<br/> <br/>
I will say this...<br/>
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As you know, the purse for a race horse who comes in first is often double that of the first runner-up. It is not uncommon for a photo-finish to decide who the winner was because to the human eye it would appear they crossed the line at the exact same time.<br/>
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The camera doesn't lie. Sometimes what needs to be measured is indiscernible until it becomes an issue. If you are taking a subjective snapshot of your recruiters' activity at that critical moment of decision-making are you going to trust your perception or the facts?<br/>
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So as not flog a dead one, why do horses race over a measured distance? Why not have the winner be the last horse running. Hmmm....if we prize speed over endurance we are measuring the total fitness of the horse or just its ability to perform in those areas that excite us?</div>
</blockquote> Sandra, rather than nitpickin…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-05:502551:Comment:5774242009-03-05T13:16:53.046ZAmitai Givertzhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/Recruitomatic
Sandra, rather than nitpicking on each point that I could have issue with let me agree with the underlying premise of your argument which I understand and relate to.<br />
<br />
I will say this...<br />
<br />
As you know, the purse for a race horse who comes in first is often double that of the first runner-up. It is not uncommon for a photo-finish to decide who the winner was because to the human eye it would appear they crossed the line at the exact same time.<br />
<br />
The camera doesn't lie. Sometimes what needs to be…
Sandra, rather than nitpicking on each point that I could have issue with let me agree with the underlying premise of your argument which I understand and relate to.<br />
<br />
I will say this...<br />
<br />
As you know, the purse for a race horse who comes in first is often double that of the first runner-up. It is not uncommon for a photo-finish to decide who the winner was because to the human eye it would appear they crossed the line at the exact same time.<br />
<br />
The camera doesn't lie. Sometimes what needs to be measured is indiscernible until it becomes an issue. If you are taking a subjective snapshot of your recruiters' activity at that critical moment of decision-making are you going to trust your perception or the facts? I guess that's rhetorical given your model.<br />
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So as not flog a dead one, why do horses race over a measured distance? Why not have the winner be the last horse running. Hmmm....if we prize speed over endurance are we measuring the total fitness of the horse or just its ability to perform in those areas that excite us? Sandra, I'll preface this by…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-05:502551:Comment:5774052009-03-05T12:57:58.220ZSteve Levyhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/Dieselevy
Sandra, I'll preface this by reminding you that on other discussions and blog posts where people pull out a few data points and say "Look!!! Here! Here! Here! It's stagnant just as I wrote!" Pull back a bit a really look at the data with the knowledge of a statistician and you see something very different. You might as well be extrapolating GDP trends from the results of a Cosmo or Glamour survey about what men want in bed...<br />
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The biggest problem with metrics are the strategy behind measurement…
Sandra, I'll preface this by reminding you that on other discussions and blog posts where people pull out a few data points and say "Look!!! Here! Here! Here! It's stagnant just as I wrote!" Pull back a bit a really look at the data with the knowledge of a statistician and you see something very different. You might as well be extrapolating GDP trends from the results of a Cosmo or Glamour survey about what men want in bed...<br />
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The biggest problem with metrics are the strategy behind measurement (why we're measuring and what it will be used for); the definition of the variables being measured) and how the data is collected and analyzed. The amateur statisticians in the world - and there are many - recoil when told that their strategy, variables, data collection process, data analyses, and presentation vehicles are flawed, and lash out when told that the <a href="http://www.hri-metrics.org/metrics08/Adams_HRIMetrics08.pdf">validity</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_(statistics)">reliability</a> of their "project" are dubious at best.<br />
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If you've read this far without becoming catatonic then remember what Claudia wrote... IF YOU CAN'T MEASURE IT, YOU CAN'T IMPROVE IT.<br />
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Diana, you'd be surprised how much statistics there is in intuition. But the more quant data we have - and smart people really have a hard time with this - the more a statistical model and solution separates itself from<br />
humans in identifying trends.<br />
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Did you notice that I said "quant"?<br />
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Because recruiting is generally and historically so poor at collection and measurement when old farts (FYI, I'm getting my <a href="https://mss.aarp.org/servlet/wppdispatcher?keycode=U5HAC3&packageid=&componentid=&whocalled=promo_enroll">AARP membership card</a> next month) talk about metrics, it's usually accompanied with the same face as when one has a case of hemmaroids or acid reflux.<br />
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I say fight it the urge to medicate!<br />
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Let the data set you free!<br />
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Lookat Crispin's and Mehler's <a href="http://www.careerxroads.com/news/SourcesofHire09.pdf">Sources of Hire</a> surveys and tell us if you have this data for your operation. Wouldn't this make a difference?<br />
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[FYI, in my doctoral program, one of my foci was in quantitative psychology - three solid years of univariate and multivariate statistics and two years of research design. I'm by no means a card carrying member of the <a href="http://www.amstat.org/">ASA</a> but I can say for certain I'm more advanced than the average recruiter]<br />
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<cite>Sandra McCartt said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?x=1&id=502551%3ATopic%3A574468&page=1#502551Comment576801"><div>Trends would seem to make a lot more sense than the tactics and drill. Bottom line is if it works do it.</div>
</blockquote> Sandra, as we often do, it is…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-04:502551:Comment:5768212009-03-04T19:28:58.744ZAmitai Givertzhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/Recruitomatic
Sandra, as we often do, it is easy to forget that one recruiters meat is another recruiters poison. There may little use for metrics in an operation like yours [where you eat what you kill] but trust me, when your herding cattle metrics can be the difference between making and losing a boatload of money.<br />
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Two asides...<br />
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One: Any recruiter who justified their "you poor sap" antics with "I am making you money" bull crap might benefit from measuring the full force of my serious displeasure.…
Sandra, as we often do, it is easy to forget that one recruiters meat is another recruiters poison. There may little use for metrics in an operation like yours [where you eat what you kill] but trust me, when your herding cattle metrics can be the difference between making and losing a boatload of money.<br />
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Two asides...<br />
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One: Any recruiter who justified their "you poor sap" antics with "I am making you money" bull crap might benefit from measuring the full force of my serious displeasure. However much money they think they're making <i>me</i>, if it's not at 100% of what they could be producing <i>I</i> don't care.<br />
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But how could we measure "100% of what they could be producing" anyway? And even if we could, who wants to work in an environment where the only measures are how much money you're making and how much of an oppressive dick your boss is? I guess under those circumstances, I'd have to agree -- better have no metrics at all.<br />
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Two: I'm not sure if it matters whether you have a popcorn stand or a chain of fast-food restaurants, measuring actual productivity over potential for growth and profitability, or holding recruiters to an "at least" standard, is a short-sighted way to leverage your people, operation, opportunities and future.<br />
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<cite>Sandra McCartt said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics?page=1&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A576672&x=1#502551Comment576672"><div>END of METRICS. We got out of the data business and back into what we do for a living.<br/> Thus the theory evolved, if someone is producing leave them alone, if they are not producing watch, look and listen, you may not have a recruiter.</div>
</blockquote> Interesting experience I'm su…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-04:502551:Comment:5767842009-03-04T19:06:06.917ZJim Damicohttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/eebttf
Interesting experience I'm sure. Metrics are not a one sized fits all and not for everyone, but they have been used to make good recruiters great and great recruiters amazing. With the software out there to aggregate data, and an a good economist (my choice as my data guy), it's amazing what you can learn and act on. It's not all Morgan Method crap ("if you make 10 more calls a week, you'll make x amount more a week), it's pretty amazing. We look at macro and micro trends, outside of just…
Interesting experience I'm sure. Metrics are not a one sized fits all and not for everyone, but they have been used to make good recruiters great and great recruiters amazing. With the software out there to aggregate data, and an a good economist (my choice as my data guy), it's amazing what you can learn and act on. It's not all Morgan Method crap ("if you make 10 more calls a week, you'll make x amount more a week), it's pretty amazing. We look at macro and micro trends, outside of just recruiting actions or tactics. The current team I'm assisting was good, but with some focus shifts, (when, where, who), they are maximizing results and their production has increased multifold, and keeps us way ahead of our competition.<br />
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<cite>Sandra McCartt said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics#502551Comment576672"><div>And what is the purpose of the data? It is to give some "data hog" lots of numbers to play with? If people are producing the metrics mean nothing. If people are not producing the metrics mean nothing. If metrics are a way of supervising people then they need to be in the accounting department. As a training tool for new recruiters, maybe, but only for an initial time period until they either hit their stride and develop their style or they give it up. A lot perhaps depends on the nature of what you are doing. Staffing large numbers of temps may require more metrics than perm recruiting.<br/><br/>In our popcorn stand the only metrics that mean anything are the placements on the board with a start date and the amount of the fee.<br/><br/>Individuals work differently, some need to keep detail and review their own work to self motivate. Others go crazy if they have to waste productive time logging data for someone else.<br/><br/>We tried all that in the foggy past. One of the highest producers we ever had would dutifully bring me a completed sheet at the end of the week. Her numbers were just weird to sum it up. I finally asked her how she could produce with the kind of metrics she was showing me. Her comment, " (Big Grin), Oh, i make those up a few minutes before i bring that stuff to you, i don't have time to fool with that stuff, i am too busy making you money." END of METRICS. We got out of the data business and back into what we do for a living.<br/><br/>Thus the theory evolved, if someone is producing leave them alone, if they are not producing watch, look and listen, you may not have a recruiter.</div>
</blockquote> Diane, based on my experience…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-04:502551:Comment:5765502009-03-04T16:14:28.466ZJim Damicohttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/eebttf
Diane, based on my experience there has been a direct correlation between analyzing and acting on causal metrics and performance. From a third party view, my earnings increased significantly when I began analyzing and acting on specific metrics within my agency (my teams earnings increased as well). Before measure, analysis, and action on the analysis (whether I agreed in my gut or not), I earned good money, but after, I began to earn great money, and sold the business successfully. From a in…
Diane, based on my experience there has been a direct correlation between analyzing and acting on causal metrics and performance. From a third party view, my earnings increased significantly when I began analyzing and acting on specific metrics within my agency (my teams earnings increased as well). Before measure, analysis, and action on the analysis (whether I agreed in my gut or not), I earned good money, but after, I began to earn great money, and sold the business successfully. From a in house perspective, by bringing in the same focus and attention I've turned two very large companies recruitng effectiveness and quality of hire around.<br />
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That being said, I'm not a statisticion, nor do I play one on TV. I have one on staff (a very valuable fellow), who crunches the data and does analysis against correlation and cause. I trust him implicitly, with the analysis and I own the action.<br />
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<cite>Diana Luger said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics#502551Comment575445"><div>Jim, my rant was somewhat tongue in cheek. My basic point is that people get so involved in the process that they forget the goal.<br/><br/>I'd be interested in how well metrics have worked for companies, if anyone wants to share that with us.<br/><br/>Diana Luger<br/><br/><cite>Jim Damico said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/metrics-schemtrics#502551Comment574883"><div>Metrics have a place, but they are not one size fits all (hence the decline in Morgan Method agencies). If you know your personal metrics, you may be able plan and communicate an effective and realistic search strategy to customers in a way that is superior to your competitors. They are a personal choice, whether you want to be the gut recruiter or not, however, I've never lost business to anyone that couldn't show metrics.</div>
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</blockquote> Did you see this from Claudia?tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-03-04:502551:Comment:5764112009-03-04T13:49:10.121ZAmitai Givertzhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/Recruitomatic
<a href="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-measurement">Did you see this from Claudia?</a>
<a href="http://www.recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-measurement">Did you see this from Claudia?</a>