Wednesday Wisdom: Lucy, you've got some 'splaining to do - RecruitingBlogs2024-03-29T12:37:28Zhttps://recruitingblogs.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?commentId=502551%3AComment%3A660895&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYou're on. Btw, how fabulous…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6608952009-06-03T19:13:17.290ZClaudia Fausthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/ClaudiaFaust
You're on. Btw, how fabulous of you to refer your friend's question to the column! :))<br />
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<cite>Jerry Albright said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A660857&x=1%23502551Comment660857#502551Comment660857"><div>How about this letter for next week?<br></br><br></br><br></br>Dear Clauda,<br></br><br></br>I am the host of the world's only on-line call in radio talk show for recruiting based out of Toronto, Canada.…</div>
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You're on. Btw, how fabulous of you to refer your friend's question to the column! :))<br />
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<cite>Jerry Albright said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A660857&x=1%23502551Comment660857#502551Comment660857"><div>How about this letter for next week?<br/><br/><br/>Dear Clauda,<br/><br/>I am the host of the world's only on-line call in radio talk show for recruiting based out of Toronto, Canada. Though my show is wildly successful I am considering "dabbling" back in the Staffing Arts. It is my opinion that drastically cutting my fees will give me a competitve edge and help me drag in a little Starbucks Coffee money. (I love that stuff.)<br/><br/>A few leaders in the industry have recently given me the "Oh no! Don't do it!" talk and so I'm wondering: is it good to cut your fees in this economy?<br/><br/>Signed,<br/>Anonymous Recruiting Figure (in Toronto)</div>
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I'm with Jerry and…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6608912009-06-03T19:10:32.520Zpam claughtonhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/pamclaughton
Claudia,<br />
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I'm with Jerry and the others on this one. When I read your reply,<br />
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"My take? You saw a fee instead of a person and put your own interests ahead of hers on the way to the bank. Your reluctant bride had some inner conflict about loyalty to her employer vs. opportunity for herself, and you didn’t explore it with her. So the truth was that she hadn’t made the emotional decision yet to leave her former employer, and you influenced her to act before she was ready. No wonder she’s nervous…
Claudia,<br />
<br />
I'm with Jerry and the others on this one. When I read your reply,<br />
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"My take? You saw a fee instead of a person and put your own interests ahead of hers on the way to the bank. Your reluctant bride had some inner conflict about loyalty to her employer vs. opportunity for herself, and you didn’t explore it with her. So the truth was that she hadn’t made the emotional decision yet to leave her former employer, and you influenced her to act before she was ready. No wonder she’s nervous about the situation at hand: she’s dealing with issues that should have been put to rest before she started her new job, and they're a year older and uglier now for having hidden in the back of the closet. No, my friend – I’d say you hold a lot of responsibility for the situation she’s in today."<br />
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I scrolled back up to reread the letter to see what I missed, because this just made no sense to me. I'm not seeing where you are assuming all of this from the posted letter.<br />
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When you recruit a passive candidate, it's not cut and dry the way it often is with a candidate who is active and had already mentally cut ties with their employer. Even though I do a lot of upfront work with candidates on counteroffers, it's still very difficult for them to make a clean break, especially if the supervisor is blind-sided and doesn't want to let them go. I just don't think it's fair to assume the recruiter is at fault in this. Sometimes breaks are just messy and I can understand how this candidate is apprehensive to have that boss back in the picture. How about this letter for nex…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6608572009-06-03T18:55:20.372ZJerry Albrighthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/JerryAlbright
How about this letter for next week?<br />
<br />
<br />
Dear Clauda,<br />
<br />
I am the host of the world's only on-line call in radio talk show for recruiting based out of Toronto, Canada. Though my show is wildly successful I am considering "dabbling" back in the Staffing Arts. It is my opinion that drastically cutting my fees will give me a competitve edge and help me drag in a little Starbucks Coffee money. (I love that stuff.)<br />
<br />
A few leaders in the industry have recently given me the "Oh no! Don't do it!" talk and…
How about this letter for next week?<br />
<br />
<br />
Dear Clauda,<br />
<br />
I am the host of the world's only on-line call in radio talk show for recruiting based out of Toronto, Canada. Though my show is wildly successful I am considering "dabbling" back in the Staffing Arts. It is my opinion that drastically cutting my fees will give me a competitve edge and help me drag in a little Starbucks Coffee money. (I love that stuff.)<br />
<br />
A few leaders in the industry have recently given me the "Oh no! Don't do it!" talk and so I'm wondering: is it good to cut your fees in this economy?<br />
<br />
Signed,<br />
Anonymous Recruiting Figure (in Toronto) Rayanne, I agree! What is our…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6607912009-06-03T18:37:07.471ZBarbara Goldmanhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/BarbaraGoldman
Rayanne, I agree! What is our role a year later? None. Recruiters bring candidates to the table, and negotiate the deal. Our clients pay us to fill a position. It's dollars and cents. The candidate doesn't pay us for emotional support. The good candidates are never easy. I don't know what a "real" candidate is. All I know is that my candidates go to work in the morning almost happy with the job. By 5:00 that day, I have called and enticed him/her to look at what my client is offering. If all…
Rayanne, I agree! What is our role a year later? None. Recruiters bring candidates to the table, and negotiate the deal. Our clients pay us to fill a position. It's dollars and cents. The candidate doesn't pay us for emotional support. The good candidates are never easy. I don't know what a "real" candidate is. All I know is that my candidates go to work in the morning almost happy with the job. By 5:00 that day, I have called and enticed him/her to look at what my client is offering. If all goes well, within a couple of weeks, we have a job offer.<br />
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Isses along the way? You bet there are issues. Boatloads of them. And yes, we discuss them. Most of the issues the candidate has, he will always have. I am just helping him with coping with change in his life. The change that I started when I called him. Of course he wants the change, but there are issues. And, we address them. Hopefully, by the time my client hires the candidate he has resolved his temporary fear issues. Of course my client saw the "real" candidate. The one without issues. Only because we discussed what was approiate for him to disclose. Is my candidate real? I created him. Are his issues real? Yes. Do his issues make him less of a candidate, or one that isn't real?<br />
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My job is to create a candidate where none existed. He's real. He is currently employed, almost happy.<br />
<br />
Only unemployed people leap at jobs. But, my clients don't want those people. That's why they pay for recruiting.<br />
<br />
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<cite>Rayanne said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?id=502551%3ATopic%3A659362&page=2#502551Comment660725"><div>OK, wait.... so the candidate <i>took the offer</i>, has worked there <i>for a year</i> and the transition seemingly went well. Now you, as the recruiter, are supposed to be concerned whether or not this candidate made the right decision..., now, unless the recruiter had fore-knowledge that there was potential that this division was going to be acquired, this issue is NOT the recruiter's problem. The candidate obviously made the right decision. Just the cards fell a way that no one was expecting...<br/><br/><cite>Claudia Faust said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve#502551Comment660689"><div>Aren't offers supposed to go to real candidates? I mean the kind that are ready, willing, and able to do the job? A candidate who hasn't fully committed isn't ready for an offer yet - and it's the recruiter's job to sort that out. Up front.<br/><br/><cite>Rayanne said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve#502551Comment660652"><div>What problem is this of the recruiter?<br/><br/><cite>Claudia Faust said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?page=1&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A660639&x=1#502551Comment660639"><div>ROFL :)) Guys, we're on the same page about counter offers! But here's the thing: it never should have gone to offer <b>until all of the issues and objections were addressed</b>. If that had been done well, a counter offer <i>never would have happened</i> because an offer would not have been extended in the first place.<br/><br/>When candidates show tentative behavior in the interview process (especially those who weren't looking before you came along), I think it's the job of the recruiter to explore the issues and put them to rest. Offers extended to people with unresolved issues become another problem for your client: turnover.<br/><br/>In this situation, there was no turnover. It sounds like the candidate transitioned well, and yes I'm reading between the lines. But here we are, a year down the road, and this candidate is once again facing not just her boss, but her concerns about the decision in the first place. And I think the recruiter could have done a better job of putting those concerns to rest BEFORE the offer was extended.<br/><br/>Just my .02</div>
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</blockquote> The "real" letter is posted,…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6607622009-06-03T18:27:40.548ZClaudia Fausthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/ClaudiaFaust
The "real" letter is posted, Jerry. I gladly admit that my response most definitely contains my personal bias (that's why they pay me the big bucks for my opinion here :)) - and when I read "passive candidate," "nervous about leaving her old job to begin with," "messy counter offer," and "hard feelings from her boss," in the same paragraph, red flags go up for me about the recruiter's role in the situation.<br />
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Let me be clear: candidates are responsible for their choices. But so are recruiters -…
The "real" letter is posted, Jerry. I gladly admit that my response most definitely contains my personal bias (that's why they pay me the big bucks for my opinion here :)) - and when I read "passive candidate," "nervous about leaving her old job to begin with," "messy counter offer," and "hard feelings from her boss," in the same paragraph, red flags go up for me about the recruiter's role in the situation.<br />
<br />
Let me be clear: candidates are responsible for their choices. But so are recruiters - and they wield a strong influence in the process while (dare I say it?) being rewarded financially to make a placement. It's a double-edged sword. All I'm saying is that the time for discovery is <i>before</i> the offer is extended, and a good recruiter helps the candidate to manage the offer process well (including counter offers).<br />
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Beyond that, we're all in agreement on the details. Sheesh!<br />
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<cite>Jerry Albright said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?page=2&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A660723&x=1%23502551Comment660723#502551Comment660723"><div>Claudia - again I request that you post the letter YOU are reading. The one you've shown to us is leaving out all these details you seem to have in your back pocket......<br/><br/>How are you determining that "all of the issuses and objections" were not addressed?<br/><br/>We must see this in 2 very different ways. To me - the candidate who has "no concern at all is all about accepting the postion no matter what" is the one who is going to bail out. The candidate who DOES have concerns to look into, issues to explore - THAT is the candidate who is REALLY thinking about this change.<br/><br/>So you're looking for the exact OPPOSITE scenario than my instincts have always guided me towards.<br/><br/>If my candidate has concerns, questions and real life "fear of the unknown" then I know this person is REALLY in this with me. (as much as the recruiter can be "in it")<br/><br/>The candidate who never brings up a concern or objection is going to bail almost always. The phrase "too good to be true" never rings more true than in the "easy placement" we all dream of......<br/><br/>So please Claudia - give us the real letter.</div>
</blockquote> The candidate left her old po…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6607472009-06-03T18:23:08.171ZScott Tidwellhttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/ScottTidwell
The candidate left her old position for a better opportunity. She would know the reasons why she left and this is where her concerns can be addressed. I'm going out on a limb here but it wasn't for the money.<br />
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The old boss recognized her value to the company any did the right thing to counter and try to save his talented Director. Usually these counter offers don't last long without other changes addressing her reasons for leaving. This old boss knows that during the acquisition and the…
The candidate left her old position for a better opportunity. She would know the reasons why she left and this is where her concerns can be addressed. I'm going out on a limb here but it wasn't for the money.<br />
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The old boss recognized her value to the company any did the right thing to counter and try to save his talented Director. Usually these counter offers don't last long without other changes addressing her reasons for leaving. This old boss knows that during the acquisition and the integration of the two divisions/companies that she could be a tremendous value. The rumor that the old boss isn't over it doesn't play very loud for me.<br />
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My recommendation is to remind her of her value and put her back in control. She should embrace the change and work towards a successful integration. She should continue to evaluate those reasons why she left the old company and communicate openly with the old boss.<br />
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So as a recruiter, you now have a passive but potentially motivated candidate that will evaluate a good opportunity. I would hold her hand. It's good business. Take her to lunch and make sure she eats right too! In the future she may be paying the recruiting fees...you never know. Claudia - again I request tha…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6607232009-06-03T18:10:46.471ZJerry Albrighthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/JerryAlbright
Claudia - again I request that you post the letter YOU are reading. The one you've shown to us is leaving out all these details you seem to have in your back pocket......<br />
<br />
How are you determining that "all of the issuses and objections" were not addressed?<br />
<br />
We must see this in 2 very different ways. To me - the candidate who has "no concern at all and is all about accepting the postion no matter what" is the one who is going to bail out. They are not in the same reality plane as you are. They…
Claudia - again I request that you post the letter YOU are reading. The one you've shown to us is leaving out all these details you seem to have in your back pocket......<br />
<br />
How are you determining that "all of the issuses and objections" were not addressed?<br />
<br />
We must see this in 2 very different ways. To me - the candidate who has "no concern at all and is all about accepting the postion no matter what" is the one who is going to bail out. They are not in the same reality plane as you are. They know they aren't going anywhere - so they're not going to have a real life discussion with you. The candidate who DOES have concerns to look into, issues to explore - THAT is the candidate who is REALLY thinking about this change.<br />
<br />
So you're looking for the exact OPPOSITE scenario than my instincts have always guided me towards.<br />
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If my candidate has concerns, questions and real life "fear of the unknown" then I know this person is REALLY in this with me. (As much as the recruiter can be "in it")<br />
<br />
The candidate who never brings up a concern or objection is going to bail almost always. The phrase "too good to be true" never rings more true than in the "easy placement" we all dream of......<br />
<br />
So please Claudia - give us the real letter. Sandra, this is the best of a…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6606932009-06-03T17:54:37.691ZClaudia Fausthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/ClaudiaFaust
Sandra, this is the best of all possible advice for the candidate I think -- once again, you've nailed it! :))<br />
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<cite>Sandra McCartt said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve#502551Comment660579"><div>If this director was happy in the new job until she found out the company was being purchased by her old boss the only thing to do when the old boss takes over is to walk in and say, "It really is a perfect world, i was torn about taking…</div>
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Sandra, this is the best of all possible advice for the candidate I think -- once again, you've nailed it! :))<br />
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<cite>Sandra McCartt said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve#502551Comment660579"><div>If this director was happy in the new job until she found out the company was being purchased by her old boss the only thing to do when the old boss takes over is to walk in and say, "It really is a perfect world, i was torn about taking this job and leaving you, as you know. " "Now i can have the perfect world, the job i took and working for you again."<br/><br/>Then get the resume up to date and hope for the best.</div>
</blockquote> Aren't offers supposed to go…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6606892009-06-03T17:53:46.831ZClaudia Fausthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/ClaudiaFaust
Aren't offers supposed to go to real candidates? I mean the kind that are ready, willing, and able to do the job? A candidate who hasn't fully committed isn't ready for an offer yet - and it's the recruiter's job to sort that out. Up front.<br />
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<cite>Rayanne said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve#502551Comment660652"><div>What problem is this of the recruiter?<br></br><br></br><cite>Claudia Faust said:…</cite></div>
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Aren't offers supposed to go to real candidates? I mean the kind that are ready, willing, and able to do the job? A candidate who hasn't fully committed isn't ready for an offer yet - and it's the recruiter's job to sort that out. Up front.<br />
<br />
<cite>Rayanne said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve#502551Comment660652"><div>What problem is this of the recruiter?<br/><br/><cite>Claudia Faust said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?page=1&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A660639&x=1#502551Comment660639"><div>ROFL :)) Guys, we're on the same page about counter offers! But here's the thing: it never should have gone to offer <b>until all of the issues and objections were addressed</b>. If that had been done well, a counter offer <i>never would have happened</i> because an offer would not have been extended in the first place.<br/><br/>When candidates show tentative behavior in the interview process (especially those who weren't looking before you came along), I think it's the job of the recruiter to explore the issues and put them to rest. Offers extended to people with unresolved issues become another problem for your client: turnover.<br/><br/>In this situation, there was no turnover. It sounds like the candidate transitioned well, and yes I'm reading between the lines. But here we are, a year down the road, and this candidate is once again facing not just her boss, but her concerns about the decision in the first place. And I think the recruiter could have done a better job of putting those concerns to rest BEFORE the offer was extended.<br/><br/>Just my .02</div>
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</blockquote> Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!
Pe…tag:recruitingblogs.com,2009-06-03:502551:Comment:6606552009-06-03T17:46:31.361ZClaudia Fausthttps://recruitingblogs.com/profile/ClaudiaFaust
Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!<br />
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<cite>Peter Ceccarelli said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?page=1&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A660560&x=1%23502551Comment660560#502551Comment660560"><div>So in this case, this person needs to throw caution to the wind, work at peak performance and let the chips fall where they may. End of story!</div>
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Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!<br />
<br />
<cite>Peter Ceccarelli said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://recruitingblogs.ning.com/forum/topics/wednesday-wisdom-lucy-youve?page=1&commentId=502551%3AComment%3A660560&x=1%23502551Comment660560#502551Comment660560"><div>So in this case, this person needs to throw caution to the wind, work at peak performance and let the chips fall where they may. End of story!</div>
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