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- Blog Post: 40 Questions You Should Think About Before Working With A New Client
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I’ve said it before, and I know…
- Added by Paul Slezak at 7:46pm on August 3, 2015
- Topic: Midnight Magic Chat Log Sept 6, 2008
- wn NOW. ****** Attend the MagicMethod FREE one hour LIVE phone sourcing classroom chats on Tuesdays and Thursdays at noon EST on the MagicMethod network here. ****** Like what you just read? MagicMethod is brimming with information like this and will show you the inside tips and techniques of true telephone names sourcers! Subscribe today here. ****** ****** Maureen I agree, D. Well, that's it for tonight - thanks for coming D! Email your questions! Denyse Diem agree to disagree, I always say! Denyse Diem I mean anyone who doesn’t like what you have to say. It's just your opinion - they dont have to agree! Maureen Oh - yeah, I agree. Me too - sometimes I am so full a' myself! Denyse Diem people tend to have a hard time getting over themselves! including my self at times i must admit! Maureen Who's that? Chat is definitely ginky tonight... Denyse Diem I think if they can't take the direct approach, they need to grow up or get out Denyse Diem yeah - I hope to live in CA for some period in my life. Didn't think I would be traveling like this tho....have to source a new job for my hubbie! LOL! Maureen There are some who don't like what I say (or how I say it) Denyse - as you get more into this community you will find out... Maureen I love Texas! And CA! Maureen That's right there is-when I first started sourcing my two biggest states for customers were CA and TX. Consequently they ARE big states but still I think that says something... Denyse Diem do you get into trouble? LOL! I hadn't heard of any - now I want to find out! LOL! Maureen Dallas is a beautiful city. Maureen In Dallas traffic? A 45 minute commute each way? NO THANKS! Denyse Diem there is so much work right here in Dallas Denyse Diem I agree M - the thing is - I would do it to see what the haps were in the medical world to create a niche for myself in sourcing in that arena - but the cummute is 45 mins each way....no thanks Maureen I don't suffer foolishness well anymore. That's why sometimes I get into "trouble" here on the boards... Maureen I know I sound hard - I am! Maureen Don't be fooled- he coulda' been playing you. The fact that he understands what a sourcer can do for his org leads me to think he may not be so green... Denyse Diem that or stressed....didn't ask me a single question! I led the entire conversation - they sounded to desperate Denyse Diem The recruiter who called me was very green. Maureen Sounds like a grinder. Maureen IF you can phone source you don't need any of that noise... Denyse Diem I've seen this job posted for several months - looks like a grinder Denyse Diem but it sounds like they want me to build their pipeline of candidates... Maureen Be careful - there are some characters surrounding us - some sharpies who understand what value we bring to the table and will try to "lure" you w/ promises... Denyse Diem so they have certain needs for certain specialties - ..yes, that's right...sorry I'm fading Maureen Oh. And pay you a small salary w benefits and then something on the if-come. I see. Denyse Diem opps - the day the doc starts the job Maureen I don't understand... Denyse Diem on site - sorry - they want me to be at their location near dallas. Denyse Diem small salary w/benefits, comission only start the day they start the job Maureen? What do you mean on sight. Maureen How are they offering to pay? Denyse Diem I was just offered a job to source for physicians only. On sight only tho. Maureen I think there are and I also think we're just scratching an itch... Denyse Diem I bet there are many applications for your sourcing that we are just not thinking of. Maureen Yup. Maureen I DID deal with characters. That's a good way of saying it. Denyse Diem no wonder you prefer the telephone! LOL! Maureen No - Mergers and Acquisitions but I could see application for marketing and advertising Denyse Diem bet you had to deal with some real characters Maureen I charged 12% of the sales price as a commission. Denyse Diem M&A = marketing & advertising? Maureen Yes - good way of saying it. Maureen Busienss intellignece (M&A activity) Denyse Diem so you were a broker for small businesses then? is that a good way to look at it? Maureen Sales. Maureen Good question. I have always thought many people could use sourcers. Maureen All types - usually they had gross sales up to $5-10million - occasionally higher... Denyse Diem who else uses sourcers? Denyse Diem do you prefer one to the other? Denyse Diem wow - what type of small business? Maureen When I first started- recruiters - nowadays it's pretty evenly divided. Denyse Diem so I had asked before so being so ruding interrupted...what entities yield the best jobs for you - recruiters? Hr depts? Maureen So THAT'S why my head isn't in it. I could tell some real horror stories... Maureen Me neither... Maureen I sold small businesses for 22 yrs - you think it's hard to make a placement? Try selling a busines to someone nobody will hire - that's WHO buys small businesses many times! Maureen No I only do phone banks when I have a need to penetrate a company for specific names...I don't data mine any longer though when I first started sourcing I spent many nights doing just that because I did not know what I was doing - it was a terrific learning ground for me... Denyse Diem so do you just data mine even if you don't have an immediate need for a name - during the holidays I mean? Maureen I don't want to have to develop relationships with people - the warm and fuzzy thing - I just want in and out - I enjoy the sense of completion a job started and finished in a few days gives me - placing requires months and months sometimes of sitting on pins and needles - who needs that? I'm not into any of that anymore. Denyse Diem here=hear LOL! good lord! Denyse Diem do you ever here of openings since you have good relationships with recruiters? And who are your major customers - recruiters, stand along company with an HR person needing help? WHo are the best folks to target? Denyse Diem but you were at one point? Maureen My head is not there. Denyse Diem what's your personal reason for sticking to the sourcing end? Maureen Doing placements is a whole different ball of wax...my head is not there anymore. Maureen The thing they don't get is that I DON'T WANT TO DO PLACEMENTS. Maureen I have never placed anyone. I get criticized occasionally for not doing so - people tell me I could make so much more money doing placements... Denyse Diem so you never try to place people? Just the names? Can I get an idea of how lucrative this can get as opposed to placing someone with a commission - actually, that may be a topic of discussion at some point Maureen Holidays and holiday weeks = Very valuable time! Maureen I always use holiday time to my advantage - holidays are great -for instance, many people go on vacation in a week that holds a holiday - and some of these will leave VoiceMail messages with valuable information on them when they combine one day of holiday with two weekends and four more days in the week to be away for a total of NINE DAYS with using up only FOUR vacation days! See how that works? So while they're away for those nine days they leave valuable info on their VoiceMails..."I'm on vacation - in my absence call..." Denyse Diem re phone banks - do you usually use holiday time to call into companies Maureen Sharib Yes and No, this isn't the only Magic chat. There are two other chats on the MagicMethod network – Tuesdays and Thursdays at noon EST. Here. Denyse Diem no - the magic chats....this is only the one here right? at midnight I mean? do you have chats elsewhere? Maureen It's an idea...maybe those who read this may want to offer their ideas on the subject... Maureen These chats D? You feel that way about these chats? Denyse Diem I wonder if instead of posting the chats, you just post a summary Maureen No phone banks this weekend. Denyse Diem it's a little frustrating reading through chats with all the banter, etc., I must admit. You have to read through a lot of conversation to get to actual points Maureen ALOT of people feel that way abt recording themselves - and it's even worse in sound - Animal has a hard time getting people to participate ont he Animal show because most people suffer mike fright... I know this to be true because one of my best sourcers comes out of the radio business and she says it's a common fear in broadcasting school... Denyse Diem so let's get to some meat then, shall we? did you call a bunch of phone banks over the weekend or were you too busy with the FL trip? Denyse Diem can't wait! Thanks for always trying to make it better! Maureen It will be much smoother - much easier to read I think. Denyse Diem okay - i'll pose my question/favor in a email to you then if you don't mind. Maureen I am in the process of revamping the delivery of Magic - you will be very pleased with the new format I think. Denyse Diem I hate having my words recorded! It's just a personal thing! lol! Maureen The longer lessons were sent to you in word so you can open, print (or copy) and read away from the 'puter. Maureen Yes. Denyse Diem by the way - is this going to be posted as well? Denyse Diem a lot of folks who can't attend b/c of work might be reading these tho...hard to choose Denyse Diem so don't get mad but last two weeks were a total blur and I still haven't been able to get to opening the first module. I didn’t notice that there was a note that the material could not be copied. I have a question or a favor to ask.... Maureen Many people like to read these chat logs - I am thinking about changing these chats to allow only PEOPLE WHO ATTEND them to be able to experience the chat - in other words - NOT make the logs available to EVERYONE – maybe only to those who attend regularly and registered MagicMethod students. It’s just a thought at this point. I think it would really improve attendance and participation. Maureen The ning chat does that but it does not allow to create a legend - this one will tell you how many are online but I guess Jason forgot to turn that function on when he switched from the ning chat tonight...ning chat tells you WHO is online as well - but it has no legend function... Denyse Diem Last time we were here there was some sort of counter that said how many folks were online and who many admins. Maureen I know what you mean - chat seems "sticky' tonight - is it for you? Maureen Who knows D there may well be...no way of telling... Denyse Diem I wasn't sure I'd have the energy to make it tonight - long day Denyse Diem oh- i misunderstood - I thought you said there were 16 of us here Maureen That's okay. Have you done phone banks since you started attending these classes? Maureen D I can't see who or how many is online so it may be just the two of us... Maureen It's more like a sales approach and for most people - sales is the LAST THING they want to be doing! I think old school recruiting may have attracted more sales types than administrivia types which what recruiting seems to suffer with today in many respects... Denyse Diem yes M -I see your point Denyse Diem Anyone else here want to chime in? you mentioned things we can do on phone banks or at night that would be good to get information in the chat description...anyone here call phone banks at night? Maureen It's a FAR DIFFERENT approach - far scarier for most people to approach someone who the likelihood is (80% or so) that they're NOT LOOKING for a job! In fact many times that's what the truly passive candidate says many times - first thing out of their mouths! Denyse Diem then the questions begin...how did you get my name, etc... Maureen Yes - Lou. Denyse Diem I've heard that name come up a lot - is that lou adler? Maureen Very FAR CRY from "This is so-and-so, we have an open position and we identified you hoping you might have an interest in our open position..." Maureen "This is so-and-so, I have your resume before me..." Maureen yes you have to call the candidate D BUT THINK what that call is like... Maureen BUT the trend makers have taken notice - I see guys like Adler giving it alot of attention and because he gets a pretty high profile (at least on ERE) things are changing... Denyse Diem Maureen the Sourcing Evangelist Maureen It's still very true today. I set out to change that. It's changing but very very slowly. Denyse Diem but if you rely on the boards don't you eventually have to call the candidate??? Maureen It's what got me active - Abt 4 yrs ago I read an article on ERE by Dr. John Sullivan - he said many recruiters and most hiring managers don't know what sourcing is. I was stunned. Denyse Diem who can share - sorry long day= typos Maureen I think old school knows what it is but the last generation (last ten yrs or so) have come up relying on the boards and the Internet and because it's less "pressure" to do things on a keyboard that doesn't push back at you many have never learned the ability to work the phone like it was once necessary - make sense? Anyone else have any ideas? Denyse Diem are there any recruiters here who share? Denyse Diem I think that many dont want to share the commision or don't see how they can increase their revenue with a sourcer Denyse Diem 95% of the recruiters I network with to learn more about the industry are stumped by what I want to do as a sourcer! Maureen Good question D. I DON'T KNOW. Beats the hell out of me. I have my suspicions though... Maureen I suspect. Maybe he can clarify that - he probably has and I wasn't paying attention... Denyse Diem why do you think that most recruiters don't know what sourcing is or rather that sourcing is its own industry Maureen GREAT recruiters can phone source. But, as in all things, few are great. It's one thing that contributes to greatness though, I strongly believe...Bill Vick says - ALL Big Billers use sourcers on the front end! Not sure how it's broken across phone/Internet but I SUSPECT a good number use phone sourcers. Denyse Diem but that was many moons ago Denyse Diem in the past I did Executive Dev. at a large financial institution in NYC and the previous to that some recruiting with Manpower Maureen Then you ARE a phone sourcer! Denyse Diem yes, for my self at this point. Maureen For your own recruiting efforts? Denyse Diem getting back into recruiting that is... Maureen You probably do your own sourcing right? Denyse Diem Denyse Diem interested in getting back into it Denyse Diem I'm taking some liberties I suppose - I will be a telephone sourcer Maureen You also do recruiting? Maureen Denyse - how long have you been a phone sourcer? Denyse Diem you are a motivating teacher! Maureen I'm going to write an article about cultural sourcing -I'm collecting information from anyone who wants to submit any - one subject will be how important it is to understand what time it is where you're calling - Hong Kong is what? 13 hrs ahead of us? Denyse Diem Hello folks, my name is Denyse Diem and I'm a Telephone names sourcer/ Researcher - some recruiting here in good ole Dallas, TX Maureen Denyse - you are really an avid student - you enjoy these chats? Yup, it's 12 Denyse Diem okay - so it's midnight at your part of the world! Maureen Thank you for attending the Saturday night MidnightMagic chat -would you all like to introduce yourselves?…
- Added by Maureen Sharib to Phone Sourcing at 1:37am on September 7, 2008
- Blog Post: The Net / Net of Net Geners
The Net Net of the Net Geners
Presented by: Doug Douglas – National Engagement Manager at…
- Added by Doug Douglas at 5:01pm on May 9, 2012
- Blog Post: Mobile Career Sites: Part 2 – Sources of Applicants and Activity
- This is Part 2 of my blog about Mobile Career Sites and applicant tracking. In…
- Added by Julia at 8:30am on May 5, 2011
- Blog Post: Staffing agencies: do they have a future?
I used to work for a staffing agency. A good one at that. One that tried hard to recruit good consultants, who, on the whole, tried hard to do a good job finding the right people for their…
- Added by Nick Leigh-Morgan at 7:21pm on May 30, 2012
- Topic: MagicMethod Midnight Moves Chat Log
- icMethod is brimming with information like this and will show you the inside tips and techniques of true telephone names sourcers! Subscribe today here. ****** Maureen Yes, it is. This RBC is a very active community with alot going on! Even in the middle of the night! April SallyR where in Hawaii? Sammee 'night all! SallyR Is anyone staying online? Bill Josephson Good group Thank you! Maureen Thank you for attending the MagicMethod MidnightMoves chat tonight - I appreciate it! SallyR Yes..thanks Bill Josephson Thank you for sitting up with us.......if I can stay awake again I will April Thanks. Maureen We have SO MUCH to discuss! Sammee Thanks Maureen, these are always entertaining! Maureen Will you all come back next week? Bill Josephson It was excellent Maureen This chat is one hour -THIS hour WENT FAST! SallyR @Maureen...how long is this chat? You must be sleepy? Maureen We didn't get too far into phone banks - we'll pick this up next Saturday again. Sammee It's only midnight here Bill Josephson Sally......I always prefer to work on my own Maureen Yikes- it's 1am already! Bill Josephson I don't really use linkedin...except I accept all invitations Maureen Tell me about it Sammee! Sammee Maureen, I know...how hard is that???? Maureen ...or maybe it does. Maureen Sammee Sorry for the poor grammar, by the way. SallyR @Bill...I'm a lone wolf unless I'm working with other recruiters for their positions Maureen Sally, because they can "find them" on LinkedIn themselves - never mind the fact - and you won't believe this - some of them won't know how to "find them" beyond that if the person does not have an email or phone number listed... I ROFLMAO when I realized that - I mean - it doesn't take a brain surgeon to find a company's number and then call... Sammee The thing I run into, is I do call into companies and direct headhunting, and I find someone who's on Monster or LI. Not always, but it has happened. Bill Josephson Maureen......I work lone wolf. I rarely speak with other recruiters unless it’s my client company's Maureen I'm not crazy about that request as I generally try to limit LI results (or any Internet results) to 10% or so of my search results - it's hard to avoid them these days! And it’s a pain in the you-know-what again to cross-check them! Except that when I do, I sometimes get corrected spellings… SallyR @maureen Why is that? Maureen Usually they do have them (Internet recruiters) these days Bill. In fact, I'm encountering requests NOT to bring in anyone off LinkedIn from my customers... Sammee SallyR, LOL Bill Josephson Maureen.......that's the winning approach Maureen Once I identify that, I dial one number after another, keeping notes along the way who is where. When I have a good number, I use them on the morrow when I "stab in". SallyR @ Sammee Bill Josephson My clients, that is Bill Josephson My companies have internet recruiters...anyone I find on the Web I assume my company already has Maureen April, I find the company’s internal dialing system. Sometimes, it will be extensions beyond the main number. Sometimes the company will use different prefixes, especially if it's a large org. Sammee I'm exceptionally good at acting befuzzled. SallyR This is fun! Thanks Maureen! Bill Josephson LOL Maureen Admit your mistakes- it makes life sweeter. Sammee SallyR, now you've got my mind working! Maureen No Sammee, I say, "I know I'm in the wrong department - I was trying to reach R&D - can you direct me?" Bill Josephson What you just said about getting internal dials and then calling directly Sammee Maureen, then do you say something along the lines, of "Oops, I was looking for ______ and got misdirected"? April How do you figure out the extensions? Maureen About? Weaponry? Bill Josephson Maureen....you are exactly correct Maureen It's a very, very effective weapon. SallyR @Sammee..I have a joke about that..but it's not for here...oh well Maureen "Stabbing in" - calling in directly to the company's employees using their internal dialing system. Every company has one - every employee usually has a desk with a phone - and it's that technology I am speaking of here - calling those employees at their desks DIRECTLY, avoiding going through the Gatekeeper altogether. Sammee SallyR Sometimes...we joke that even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then! SallyR @ Sammeee You're lucky April Hi,all. Maureen..."stabbing in"? Maureen It IS an excellent approach! Bill Josephson Maureen.....that sounds like an excellent approach Sammee Actually I partner with a recruiter who's had quite a bit of success with internet sourcing. Maureen Bill, what I would do (and do do) in defense or at companies whose phone directory is not easily accessed is to find the internal dial system, and then I just start dialing for dollars. Area code, prefix, extension. One after another, in order numerically. Writing the names down as I go and then, on the morrow, call those names directly using the "stabbing in" approach - usually by the fifth stab that answers I have the information that I need! Bill Josephson Sammee.....I feel as though every company and recruiter already knows the person Sammee Bill, why does internet sourcing make you nervous? Bill Josephson Maureen, yes. They don't offer directory assistance--just names through name recognition Maureen I see - Bill. Yes, I've encountered that in defense - it's another reason defense is so hard - - that said the name recognition stuff is a pain in the you-know-what! Bill Josephson Internet sourcing would make me nervous SallyR Yes.... Some stuff on the internet are old info Maureen Sally, you just started sourcing names off the Internet and then attempting to run them down? Sammee I need to do some mining, then. Maureen Very detailed Sammee. They usually list juts about everyone in the office in their phone directories. SallyR I don't know since I just started doing that Sammee How detailed do they usually get in the phone directory? Maureen Oh, you mean "say the name"? Bill Josephson Maureen...a canned voice will say if you know the name of the person please say it now. If I mention a name they'll connect me to someone who's close Maureen Explain Bill. Maureen Sally - did you answer - what % of name soyu find on the Internet are "still there" when you call? Bill Josephson Maureen....I usually don't get that in the phone package .....I do get chances for name recognition Maureen Everyone remembers that right? From calling repeatedly into companies trying to locate people? SallyR This is fun... Sammee Not only that, they respect you more if you do that...and there is more possibility down the line... Bill Josephson Sammee...correct. You must know when to walk away and do so, or they break your heart later on Sammee Maureen - sadly, not so much! Maureen A phone bank is a company's listing of names found in their answering service...you know how when you call it will tell you, "For our employee directory, press ...9” (or 6 or 4 - it just depends) and once you do you’re invited to locate people inside the company by spelling their names? Sammee Bill, I agree...and it's a differentiator when you walk away from people you can't help. Bill Josephson What are they? Maureen Do you ever do them? Bill Josephson Tell me about phone banks Maureen Butterfly valve designer- you're finding THOSE on the Internet? SallyR @Sammee...not yet Bill Josephson I believe the skill in our job is to decipher as fast as possible whether we can provide a useful service to the person or not--do they have incentive to want our services, or not Maureen We were s’posed to talk about how to do phone banks in here tonight - everyone know what I mean? Maureen Let's move on - Sally's head looks like it might be hurting from all that wall banging... Sammee SallyR...oh dear...I've so been there!!! Don't have a butterfly valve designer in your back pocket, do you??? SallyR Or I feel like I can cry Maureen Sally - that's funny! Maureen LOL Sammee! SallyR Banging head on wall emoticon Maureen Yes? You do agree or don't agree? Sammee That too, Maureen! SallyR Yes....that's why I like it when candidates come to me Maureen Or...a game of numbers quantified by skill... Maureen So Sally, you don't agree that Internet names might be more difficult to approach because they're likely to have been approached before, repeatedly? Sammee I heard something I like better...It's a game of skill that's quantified by numbers. Bill Josephson The trick in this business is not to overcome every objection to be a killer salesman--but to get to the truth as fast as possible with each phone call determining your prospects and weeding out your suspects SallyR I do splits.. SallyR When you call companies..its still a number game too Sammee Sometimes they do...but I always say that I'm keeping that confidential, just as I would keep it confidential if they referred me to someone. Maureen ”depending if I'm help other recruiters out” - what do you mean Sally? Maureen It sure is. I tell people that ALL THE TIME. This is a numbers game. SallyR most industries..depending if I'm help other recruiters out Bill Josephson Maureen, yes.......I know my stats. It's really a numbers game as much as people want you to sometimes think otherwise. Maureen Do they ask who Sammee? Sammee Hi all. I tell people that I was referred to them by someone in the industry. Maureen Any industry in particular Sally? Maureen Very, very good Bill! You know that though, right? SallyR Yes.since they don't know me..... Maureen Sally, then what do they say? Are they surprised? Bill Josephson Sally, I'm enticing them by telling them they have a tremendous opportunity to compare another situation with their present one...that they have everything to gain as they either have a job they presently like or a new position SallyR Then I tell them that I was researching and their name came up Maureen What do you say? SallyR How did you get my name? yes. I get that question too Bill Josephson Yes, I'd say if I actually speak with 50-60 people and can receive 8 resumes, one will likely result in a hire Maureen And, Bill, out of those 6-8 resumes, you usually can make a hire? Maureen Sally, you get what ? Maureen So out of an average of 130 phone sourced names in the defense sector, you get 6-8 quality resumes. I'd say you're working wonders! Maureen Good answer Bill! Bill Josephson Yes.......I tell them it's my job to find them cause they're not looking to be found Bill Josephson 100 sourced, leads to 30 conversations, leads to 4 resumes......so around 125-135 sourced names for a hire Maureen Sally, when you phone source, and then call THOSE phone sourced names, chances are you're calling peeps WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN CALLED BEFORE about other opportunities! This is one of the best reasons to learn phone sourcing - so you're able to access those "fresh" names... In fact, it's one of the things I often hear from people when I profile - "How'd you get my name?" they ask, rather wonderingly. Or, "I'm not looking for a job!" I welcome both questions! SallyR And that why I like it when candidate call me.....at least I have something to talk to them about Bill Josephson 125-135 Maureen To get those 6-8- quality resumes how many people do you have to phone source? Bill Josephson So it's hard in my space to get candidates and interviews, but when I do one of two interviewed will receive an offer Maureen Oh I see Sally. Here's one thing you're up against - BECAUSE these people are "findable" on the internet - usually you're not the first recruiting person to call them - especially for people in highly sought industries/positions - do you understand this? It's one reason your reception may have been cool in the past - they're worn out by recruiters calling! Bill Josephson But then the company will make an offer to one out of every two candidates I send SallyR I guess it's my training..I've always called companies & I don't mind the rejections from companies Bill Josephson It's hard for me to find candidates willing to make a change. I may need 125-135 quality resumes to get an interview with the company as they're selective Maureen So you feel tongue tied Sally w/out a resume in front of you, Bill Josephson It's hard for me to find candidates willing to make a change. I may need 6-8 quality resumes to get an interview with the company as they're selective SallyR It's like I feeling like..I don't know how to speak since I don't have any info in front of me...like looking at their resumes Maureen How so? Bill Josephson In my space it's different with hiring Maureen What do you mean Sally: "hmmmm then...I'm sorry I got the wrong number feeling" SallyR Hey Bill..I get those sometimes....with other recruiters I help out Maureen Do you think it would be out of line to say you need 200 phone sourced names to effect ONE IMMEDIATE HIRE? That's about where I tag it for defense...far beyond the normal of 30-50 that's usually needed in other industries! SallyR I do most industries..depending if I'm helping other recruiters with their positions Bill Josephson Maureen...yes, we did Maureen Didn't we just talk abt this on Thursday Bill in the noon MM chat? YES you have one of the hardest spaces to source/recruit in! SallyR Yes..then I get to the person...hmmmm then...I'm sorry I got the wrong number feeling Maureen Big OH. Bill Josephson But this was a problem in Information Technology as well Maureen OH. Bill Josephson Defense Engineering Bill Josephson Maureen.....I get that all the time, correct. Maureen What space you recruit in Bill? SallyR Bill has more experience than me Maureen What percentage of the time is the person "still there"? Maureen So she usually transfers you Sally IF that person is "still there" - right? Bill Josephson If I'm recruiting and sourcing, all it takes is one of my attempts to be leaked to the person's boss and the boss then either tells HR or sends an email to all their staff to not speak with me Maureen Some Gatekeepers are Bill - you know what? When she tells you she doesn't have titles there at the front desk - she's usually lying - you get this right? SallyR I ask for the name that I found from the internet -- Bill Josephson Maureen, I agree. Far better to get the names in your planning and call them the next day Maureen It sounds Bill, you need to learn some "technique" so they don't know you've been calling! You're losing your element of surprise when you reveal yourself... SallyR I agree with Bill Bill Josephson I believe gatekeepers are told to not divulge names--they're much more savvy today than in the past, IMO Maureen Sally - what/who are you asking? Maureen That's one reason Bill, I recommend you do your sourcing first - recruiting second. Finish the sourcing so you've captured all the names and then go at them FAST and FURIOUS - in one day if possible! SallyR Some gatekeepers are protective SallyR Why would they do that if they don't know you? Bill Josephson So my cover can be quickly blown if one employee leaks I've been calling to their boss Maureen No, Sally, I'm trying to get info - including names. I am trying to build, as quickly as possible, as gracefully as possible so as not to alarm her - as much abt the org I need to penetrate as possible - I want her to tell me names, admin names, extension numbers or direct dials, "other" people in the dept, I don't care that she doesn't give me "titles" at this point - what I want are NAMES - I'll figger the rest out later Maureen Maybe they have something to be paranoid ABOUT. Maybe, just maybe, they should be looking inward at their own employee policies and not outward... Bill Josephson And often the word gets around fast to the department I'm trying to recruit from a recruiter is trying to penetrate. They email all the staff in that department so they're ready for me Then I'd recruit and the person will say they know I've been calling, and aren't authorized to speak with me SallyR So you're trying to get a referral then? Maureen In the old days she'd list them all? Bill Josephson I believe companies are quite paranoid Maureen I use that name in a cat's paw fashion to extract other info... Connie Hampton taught me this expression. Maureen Usually Sally. But that's not usually what I want to do - speak to the person - I want to use the name I have to get other names... SallyR with the talent shortage..... Bill Josephson Maureen, I'd ask the receptionist for the names of General Accountants....that I spoke with one and couldn't remember their name. She'd list them all Maureen So both of you think companies are paranoid? SallyR If you have a name....don't they let you speak to the person? Bill Josephson Companies seem more savvy than they once were Maureen How did you do it in 1980 Bill? Bill Josephson Sally...they indeed are. I'm often told by the recptionist I won't be put through anywhere without a name Maureen Late 90 's? Hmmm... that would include most of my phone sourcing career, started in 96-97. I don’t think I ever really asked for depts - but I think there are some depts you can still ask for by name and get to...AR for one... Quality - I rarely have trouble when I ask for "Quality" - don't really know why. SallyR I think that some companies are afraid that you're stealing their employees Bill Josephson Makes me glad I'm not a rookie recruiter/sourcer today Bill Josephson When I first began in 1980 it was easy to navigate a company to find who you wanted SallyR Perhap I have to pretend the candidates are clients, too. Maureen Let's see what we can do to take somea' that fear away Sally... Bill Josephson Maureen....since the late 90's......getting much tougher to penetrate companies without a name Maureen When did you notice a sea change Bill? SallyR Well...it's scary... Maureen Funny Sally! Maureen I see - the high stuff, Sally, you find on company websites - sometime, if you read the press releases you'll find a little more- not much but maybe a little - Product Marketing stuff mostly... Gopi Hi Bill SallyR Oh yeah – cold sweat emoticon Gopi Is it Shally Steckerl there? Bill Josephson Hi Gopi Gopi Hi everybody Maureen So Sally, you're okay if you're calling a candidate who has contacted you in one way or another - but callng a company and asking a Gatekeeper for names is something that sets you into a cold sweat? Bill Josephson It's very hard now to get into a company without a name, Used to be able to ask for departments Gopi Hi Maureen SallyR Depending on the positions. like director, VPs presidents Maureen That was remarked on too...that today it's problematic (to say the least!) SallyR I don't have any problem if I find resume in that's posted but cold calling..it's hard. Bill Josephson Companies in the late 90s started only having online directories, then it became harder to get them from candidates Maureen Sally, what kind of names do you find on the targeted company's website? Bill Josephson Maureen, I use to get lots of directories up till companies started only had online directories Maureen at the outset...put some "mystery" carrot into the process... SallyR I use resume search sometimes... Maureen Bill, I read something not long ago here on the networks - a guy said (talking about directories) that he told his potential placements one thing at the beginning of their relationship - that once the person was placed - he was going to ask for ONE FAVOR from that person - and when the time came he asked that person for the former company's directory - I guess the same technique could be true to ask for referrals... SallyR and the targeted companies websites SallyR googles... Maureen Any particular place on the Internet Sally? SallyR Internet search Bill Josephson Usually people I'm trying to recruit I'm then trying to network through SallyR Some of the info are old... Maureen Where do you find the names Sally? SallyR Sometime I can find the names but finding where they are currently at Maureen Who in the org do you usually try to get names from? In other words, is there someone you approach first? Bill Josephson Trying to get names from people is the hardest Maureen Bill, what's nerve racking about it? SallyR I don't really follow a script. I just see how the clients acts Bill Josephson Maureen...I do Bill Josephson Maureen, yes....there are a few ways Maureen Bill - do you phone source? Bill Josephson Sourcing is nerve racking....recruiting, you just follow a script Maureen Bill I thought maybe you’re talking about using the phone to get names and sometimes numbers- you know how to do that? SallyR I'm used to calling companies not cold call candidates...I call candidates if they send me their resumes Maureen It takes ALOT of practice - many people don't get this. I mean - alot of practice! SallyR Like I'm not good at it yet Bill Josephson Using technology to get names/numbers SallyR Internet search...then I'm kinda shy about calling candidates..I don't have any problem when companies says no to me.. Maureen Welcome to the MagicMethod Midnight Hour - we're going to be talking tonight about things you can do with the telephone in the middle of the night! Who's all here? Midnight – Chat officially starts Maureen Sally and Bill, how do you source? Maureen I think recruiting would be much harder - though, let me say this front and center...I've never done it! SallyR Maybe because I don't really do what you do...u know the unknown Bill Josephson Of my sourcing and recruiting sourcing is much harder Maureen You think so? I don't! SallyR I think you your job is hard...harder than recruiting SallyR No.. Maureen Cool - thanks! Bill Josephson Hi Maureen SallyR Honolulu Hawaii..I have read your blogs on ERE for years Maureen Sally, did you read last week's chat log? Bill Josephson I'm here Maureen Where are you? SallyR No SallyR It's about 5:54pm here Maureen Were you here last week? Maureen Jus' about - I woke up at w/ a start! SallyR wow...it's midnight? Maureen Glad you could make it tonight! SallyR I am so glad you're not part of the stuff in the digging into... SallyR I was reading the world makes a path... Maureen Hi Warm –Up – this conversation started about fifteen minutes or so before class started.…
- Added by Maureen Sharib to Phone Sourcing at 8:37am on August 31, 2008
- Topic: Talent Talk Cafe Transcript - What is Community - June 10/08
- an - welcome! 3:03pm John Little First time to the Talent Talk Cafe 3:03pm Susan Burns Hi John - welcome! 3:04pm Susan Kang Nam first time for me as well~~ 3:04pm Chet Volpe community... a group with common interest. 3:04pm Susan Burns Hi Chet - thanks for the comment 3:04pm Angelia Floyd I'm hoping that this topic will give me more insight...but I would also agree with Chet. That's my general thought about it 3:05pm Susan Burns In addition to a common interest what else helps define a community 3:05pm Susan Burns And - what do you think people want/expect/desire from being part of the community? 3:05pm Angelia Floyd I think they want to feel part of the group 3:06pm John Little to gain wisdom and knowledge from like minded individuals 3:06pm Chet Volpe looking for mutual support and some benefit from belonging to the group. 3:06pm Susan Burns These are great comments - feeling a part of something, gaining knowledge, mutual support... 3:07pm Ryan Leary Hello 3:07pm Maren Hogan Well I think that "intimacy" needs to be part of community, yes at different levels and times but it is important 3:07pm Rayanne copmmunity: those with different expereinces and knowledge coming together for a common good 3:07pm Slouch I remember speaking to John sumser once and he told me that a successful community is one where the members and thpse participating somehow can say or feel that they get back more than what they put into it 3:07pm Susan Burns Hi Maren! Can you say more about intimacy 3:07pm Rayanne *community Maren Hogan mutual support is key though, you have to give as well as recieve 3:07pm Susan Burns Hi Rayanne! - So diverse ideas and thoughts? 3:07pm Susan Burns Great comments about sharing - giving/receiving - I like to think of it as a value exchange - contribute to get something back 3:08pm Rayanne yes, and touching on what Jason said, "giving back" 3:08pm Maren Hogan shoot. I am trying to but my comp is having issues, lemme run to the PC 3:09pm Susan Burns So, in the broader conversation about social networking sites and recruiting - what could make a difference then with how we've talked about community 3:09pm Rayanne "coming together is a beginning..: 3:09pm Susan Burns and what companies could do with their strategy? 3:09pm Susan Burns Rayanne - can you say more about "coming together"? 3:10pm Rayanne It was a quote by Henry Ford 3:10pm Rayanne "..Staying together is progress.. 3:10pm Maren Hogan Community has to be intentional. If you have a billion LI connects but no relationships to back those up, that is not community 3:11pm Rayanne working together success 3:11pm MN Headhunter I think recruiters forget that social networking sites are just that, social. That it is about creating and furthering relationships. 3:11pm Maren Hogan Investing in those you can and building up some while learning from others can be practiced easily in companies if they implement a mentoring program that does not suck 3:11pm MN Headhunter Do that first, then see if someone is interested in a job 3:11pm Susan Burns Rayanne - so before you can move to process/results its important to come together and "be"...talk...share? 3:12pm Jeff Ingman Newbee here... to me the value of community is a way to get help from others facing the same issues. 3:12pm Susan Burns Hi Paul! Hi Jeff 3:12pm MN Headhunter (sorry to be late)\ 3:12pm Rayanne recognizing that each of us comes from a different place with a different perspective 3:12pm Susan Kang Nam I would have to say be able to understand each other for that common goal in mind...having a developing a relationship 3:12pm Susan Burns Paul - glad your here! 3:12pm Susan Burns So respect is also part of community 3:13pm MN Headhunter absolutely 3:13pm Rayanne "being" is extremely important in order for that openess to take place 3:13pm Susan Kang Nam definitely - respect goes a long way.. 3:13pm Susan Burns I've been re-reading the Cluetrain Manifesto and there is great content about online connections - conversation - marketplace 3:14pm Rayanne I think of it like a web - together we build soemthing strong and inclusive 3:14pm Slouch Susan, what do you think is working these days with recruiting and using social networks 3:14pm Rayanne apart we just build walls 3:14pm Susan Burns Jason - I've seen very few examples of success and whats working partly becuz companies are trying to dive in and extract value immediately w/out engagin in the community 3:15pm Rayanne that is never successful - 3:15pm Rayanne you have to come together first 3:15pm Maren Hogan Well I'm not Susan but I think the first question directly impacts the second. When you enter a comm like a bull in a china shop and start posting jobs and hitting people with what are, in essence, ads, they disengage 3:15pm Susan Burns Where they are engaging they are getting results - Twitter is producing hires but via the biz leads versus recruiters 3:15pm MN Headhunter Jason, here is my example. In 1000 tweets on Twitter I have asked 1 time about help filling a job. 3:16pm Chet Volpe anyone still there? anyone have any comments or experience with starting a group on one of the socia networks around having your motives questioned. 3:16pm MN Headhunter But durung that time I have had 8 requests to lend some help. 3:16pm Susan Burns Chet - I think your motives are questioned when you take the "bull" approach Maren describes. Its a dance at first and you need to play and have fun - then results will arise 3:17pm Maren Hogan Chet, I think when you follow some of the above guidelines, that tends to happen less and less. When you can give before taking and provide real value to your community, people will eventually come to you. 3:17pm MN Headhunter Someone once used the analogy of being at a party. Guy shows up, passes out his real estate business card. Hits everyone up for leads. 3:17pm MN Headhunter You do not want to be that guy 3:17pm Maren Hogan Reason? You are there and it is obvious you care. Does that sound like a Hallmark card? 3:17pm Maren Hogan or girl 3:17pm Rayanne Just give back more than you take and no one will question.. 3:17pm Slouch i don;t even want to be at that party Rayanne my mom used to say, "keep the camping site cleaner than you found it..." that applies here as well 3:18pm Susan Burns When you enter a community and immediately want to extract value without contributing the community either doesn't respond or responds negatively. It can be detrimental to the brand 3:18pm MN Headhunter But the analogy goes for every situation. If you go to a party, recruiting event, or start a web site it cannot be about what you want but what you can offer 3:18pm Jeff Ingman So give a few examples of how to give to this community? 3:19pm MN Headhunter offer advice, offer to connect people, offer links to knowledgable people\ 3:19pm Rayanne share expereiences, 3:19pm Slouch I think that with Ning and the ability to set up a provate network, the ability to create an unbelievable recruiting tools exists 3:19pm MN Headhunter promote others events, expertise 3:19pm Slouch private 3:19pm Rayanne be light-hearted..., this is not an easy job 3:19pm Susan Burns Community is taking a perspective that we are all connected at a deeper level. By listening to the community you also learn more about what they want Slouch Hey jeff, are you referring to RecruitingBlogs.com? 3:20pm Susan Kang Nam I am fairly new to all this.. and I think listening. is very important so far.. to reach out and to see what the "needs" are.. and how to give back... This is my perspective so far.. 3:21pm Jeff Ingman Yes 3:21pm Susan Burns Also, looking at connection as being fun, an experiment, a global marketplace - often the community will begin to share what they want more of or less of - RB.com is a great example 3:21pm Rayanne listening is key 3:21pm Rayanne imperative, even 3:21pm MN Headhunter that and we all have had at some point in our careersm the same questions, issues, etc and at some point someone helped us it is our turn to help back 3:21pm Susan Kang Nam definitely.. 3:21pm Susan Burns listening and giving back - very key in the beginning but also to grow and retain community 3:22pm Maren Hogan In life, and business, there is an excellent rule to follow: have one person you are mentoring (passing along knowledge, building up) 3:22pm Maren Hogan one person that you are on the same level with, so you can bounce ideas off each other, iron sharpens iron 3:23pm MN Headhunter but doing this takes time and most do not want to invest. they want to do a withdrawal without doing a deposit 3:23pm Susan Burns This is a great discussion - wonderful comments - thanks! 3:23pm Maren Hogan and a third that is your mentor, they hold you accountable and teach you what they've learned 3:23pm Slouch i just typed a ton of ideas and it never made it Jeff. I'll wait maybe there is a delay and I;ll retype it 3:23pm MN Headhunter (happened to me too) Rayanne happened to me too 3:24pm Susan Burns Time is a key factor - so how do we do all of this for recruiting? Is small, targeted better than firehose 3:24pm Rayanne I agree with Maren 3:24pm MN Headhunter Maren, intersting that I have been doing that without knowing I was doing that 3:24pm Jeff Ingman I'm new to this site. Where is the best place to go on the site to learn and contribute to the community? 3:24pm Susan Burns and yes - had the same thing with the chat black hole 3:24pm Rayanne right on the home page is a great place to start Jeff 3:24pm Slouch Jeff, you can read, and contribute ideas and perspectives, refer people to the site you think will add value and keep the site interesting 3:24pm Susan Burns jeff - this is a great starting point. you can also visit the forum - write/contribute or blog content 3:24pm Slouch you can submit videos 3:24pm MN Headhunter Jeff, start a blog post on your page or create a discussion forum. 3:25pm Rayanne and ideas 3:25pm John Little not to go all sales 101 but listening is the MOST important part of being a successful salesperson 3:25pm Slouch take me up on offers I make for free tickets to conferences. I give away a lot of them, 3:25pm MN Headhunter John, AMEN 3:25pm Susan Burns Jeff - great as well that your interested and asking!! 3:25pm Maren Hogan it's all good, some of us NEED sales 101 3:25pm MN Headhunter I always suggest "lurking" for a period of time. Get to know the "players", get to know the culture of the group before jumping in 3:25pm Rayanne sometimes we worry so much about what we will say next that we stop listening 3:26pm Slouch this idea for talent talk was susans and now she has the floor. If you ever have ideas about how you can add something here, let me know 3:26pm Susan Burns Just read that ameriprise is giving training to their brokers on compassion - revenue went up and stress went down 3:26pm Susan Kang Nam I agree with Rayanne on that.. 3:26pm Jeff Ingman I know about lurking but it can get boring if you don't jump in... even if you aren't up to speed 3:26pm Maren Hogan that is so cool. whose brainchild was that one? 3:26pm Rayanne that is a great idea 3:26pm Susan Burns Paul - definitely - observe and then immerse! 3:26pm Maren Hogan Oh nuts, I think I did it backward. Oh well! 3:27pm Chet Volpe In my experience using linkedin for networking and recruiting, I always approach folks from the networking prespective and if they are interested in the position I am trying to fill, that is good. not sure how to get started on some of the others like 3:27pm Rayanne it all goes back to that darn "golden rule" 3:27pm MN Headhunter Jeff, it's a fine line. Some folks jump in like a cannon ball. Some try the water with the ote 3:27pm Susan Burns Maren/Rayanne are u asking about the ameriprise training? 3:27pm MN Headhunter toe 3:27pm Chet Volpe myspace or face book 3:27pm Maren Hogan I am asking about ameriprise training 3:27pm Rayanne yup 3:27pm Susan Burns chet - depends - big diff in demographics between the two and ms is shedding members 3:27pm MN Headhunter Chet, do a search on MySpace. People sign up for diffeent things like friend, dating, relationships, and networking 3:28pm Susan Burns maren/rayen - no link but was in Ode magazine. Its on my list to write about - very cool and measurable outcomes 3:28pm MN Headhunter If they say networking, that is for me an open invitation to introduce myself. But offering something they might want 3:28pm Susan Burns oops- sorry Rayanne - typing to fast and missed a few letters 3:29pm MN Headhunter like an upcoming tech event, salary information, news link 3:29pm Maren Hogan Ode? Is new to me. Will look up 3:29pm Rayanne you can call me Ray 3:29pm Susan Burns RE community - I'm at a university recruit conference and we just had a panel discusion - they are totally turned off by recruiters who dive in and reach out to recruit 3:29pm Susan Burns they see as separate space between personal and professional 3:30pm MN Headhunter nothing worse than seeing that o Facebook, very annoying. 3:30pm MN Headhunter If one offers information and becomes trusted, people will reach out to you 3:30pm Susan Burns looking at fan sites - check out victoria's secret piink (esp u Paul) as an alternative to direct outreach 3:30pm MN Headhunter uhh, I might look elsewhere on the site 3:31pm Susan Burns Paul - YES TRUST is really important - how do you build it online? 3:31pm Slouch are they hiring? 3:31pm Rayanne There is a line between pro / personal but that is where I have found my greatest successes 3:31pm Rayanne when I connect with candidates and clients personally 3:31pm Rayanne are you looking slouch? 3:31pm Slouch lol 3:31pm MN Headhunter we both are 3:31pm Slouch not today 3:31pm Susan Burns Rayanne - how are you crossing over from professional to personal? 3:31pm MN Headhunter there I mean 3:31pm Rayanne in my very forst conversation 3:32pm Rayanne first 3:32pm Rayanne be it a common interst, location...etc. 3:32pm Susan Burns Jason and Paul are distracted now ;-) 3:32pm Slouch im back. im sorry 3:32pm Maren Hogan I know how do we always talk about beer and women?? 3:32pm Susan Kang Nam lol 3:32pm MN Headhunter I go back to the Twitter idea. 1000 tweets, 1 job mentioned. Just be yourself, be a little forward, see what other people are talking about, make a connection 3:32pm Susan Burns so Rayanne - your nurturing the relationship and moving the line to overlap btwn prof and personal 3:33pm Rayanne taking it past a cold call 3:33pm MN Headhunter It's about relationshsips. Maybe that is why for some this does not work. they want the results now. 3:33pm Rayanne I never think of it as a cold call 3:33pm Susan Kang Nam I think also it's about timing...as well.. 3:33pm Rayanne timing is everything-- which is why I keep calling 3:34pm Rayanne the next one might be the right time 3:34pm Slouch that is exactly right 3:34pm Susan Burns susan - that also implies understanding, patience and investing in someone - yyes? 3:34pm Slouch how many time you call someone and they are no longer at the company and you look at your notes and they said, very happy right now, call me back in 6 months 3:35pm Susan Kang Nam YES! 3:35pm Dennis Smith I agree with Paul about the rel'ships...I don't find many that are disagreeable, even if we've not yet developed a "meaningful" rel'ship 3:35pm Slouch that is a real big lesson the first time it happens 3:35pm Rayanne often, Jason 3:35pm MN Headhunter As a side note, I have never looked at Twitter as a recruiting tool but a relationship tool. People know what I do and to tie in to Rayanne that when they are ready they will tell me 3:35pm Rayanne yep 3:35pm Dennis Smith Which is the same way I've viewed FBook 3:35pm Jeff Ingman techinical observation... the print in this chat is small for us with weak peepers. Who to ask to make it bigger 3:35pm MN Headhunter I use my ATS for that, Jason. I always ask to call back in 90 or 180 days. And then I do. 3:36pm Jeff Ingman i have expanded with IE but this distorts stuff a bit 3:36pm Rayanne That's good Paul 3:36pm Susan Burns paul - great comment re Twitter - & the beauty of it is that by building connecttions and sharing it evolves to return value 3:36pm Rayanne follow up and follow through leads to a strong reputation 3:36pm Slouch Jeff, I don;t think I can fix it now. I will check on it after. Thanks 3:37pm Susan Kang Nam I haven't explored Twitter yet.. but now I will.. thanks for that 3:37pm Rayanne ho dennis... 3:37pm Susan Burns I learn something on twitter every day and feel compelled to give back - which is also why i'm more patient w/ their technical issues and not jumping to plurk 3:37pm MN Headhunter And in the mean time I suggest they look at my blog, or add to my newsletter email list, or see if they or someone they know are interested in helping a local non profit who needs tech volunteers 3:37pm Rayanne hi, i mean.. geez 3:37pm Jeff Ingman did not expect immediate fix 3:37pm Slouch thanks 3:37pm Dennis Smith question for Paul...are you connected to hundreds of people on twitter or just those that you think would be important with regard to long-term value 3:37pm Susan Burns paul - that adding value as well - you put a lot into your blog that gives a lot to people 3:37pm Susan Burns hey Dennis - welcome! 3:37pm Dennis Smith thanks Susan! 3:37pm Dennis Smith late - sorry 3:38pm MN Headhunter I was shocked whenI went to local tech event, wearing a blue shirt, similar to tone on my Twitter profile, and people walk up and say "hey" 3:38pm NMarie I like the email list idea...although it is not "One-on-One" it keeps in contact... 3:38pm Rayanne better late then never 3:38pm Slouch Dennis. great video you made and I love the song 3:38pm Rayanne me too! 3:38pm Maren Hogan I think twitter has made me way recognizable to people. Had four people at Kennedy intro themselves 3:38pm Dennis Smith well, knew you would bro....got the rush kinship thing going 3:38pm Susan Burns Paul - that also brings up the importance of another dimension - moving between the online and offline worlds 3:38pm Rayanne aww, yes, kinship..... 3:38pm MN Headhunter Dennis, Twitter, it changes. who I follow and seem to follow me is split 3:39pm Dennis Smith gotcha 3:39pm MN Headhunter 1/3 local tech folks,. 1/3 recruiter folks, 1/3 bloggers 3:39pm Maren Hogan I think it's important to reach out whenever possible, F2F, phone, card etc. 3:39pm Susan Burns Is blending online/offline an effective approach to recruitment as well? 3:39pm MN Headhunter It has to be 3:39pm Rayanne pphone 3:39pm MN Headhunter I spend about 1/3 of my time doing the social stuff the rest is old school phone and enmail 3:40pm Maren Hogan if you use only online tools, your phone muscles goe dead. . . 3:40pm Susan Burns has anyone else seen examples of doing this really well - social - community? 3:40pm Maren Hogan um that's the british spelling of "go" 3:40pm Rayanne true, Maren 3:40pm Rayanne ummm..., REALLY connecting a group? 3:40pm Maren Hogan Heck yeah! RBC and my twitterpeeps 3:40pm Rayanne RBC 3:40pm Maren Hogan Or are you asking for corp stuff? 3:41pm Rayanne definitely 3:41pm NMarie It also depends on industry you work in... Healthcare requires more emailing and phone! 3:41pm Rayanne healthcare requires patience 3:41pm Susan Burns absolutely - RBC!! 3:41pm Rayanne and tenacity 3:41pm Susan Burns yes - what about for corporate recruitment or even third party 3:41pm Susan Burns Hi NMarie - can you share more about that 3:42pm MN Headhunter I am sitting on the company name for the moment, but a Minnesota $5B is redoing their corporate web site to add career pages specifically for sales, tech, and marketing folks. Set up a Twitter account for jobs, and added RSS feeds too 3:42pm Rayanne when I worked in-house- we had a rule: no stopping and talking in the halls. 3:42pm Maren Hogan it's fascinating actually, because I have been invited to eerily similar groups and occassionally joined but it's the intentional leadership here that engages people and makes each member feel valued rather than as a connection commodity 3:42pm Slouch If I were still recruiting now, I would take the top 300 candidates I can name and build out a provate ning group for them and then start singing and dancing 3:42pm Slouch the placements will absolutely follow 3:42pm MN Headhunter Best Buy also does some of this with more rollig out this year 3:42pm NMarie Yes, because of the Nurses I am recruiting, my experience is they enjoy seeing things in writing... 3:42pm Dennis Smith They (BB) is getting "it" ....just like the other company you mentioned. 3:43pm MN Headhunter Jason, doing that here too for the tech community. My late summe project 3:43pm Susan Kang Nam I had similar experience with recruiting for researchers at a University...setting. 3:43pm Susan Kang Nam the like to see more writing... 3:43pm MN Headhunter But they are the onkly 2 3:43pm Dennis Smith This is very standard communication protocol for many in the X Gen,...... 3:43pm MN Headhunter 220 recruiters at our last event, 7 using RSS feeds 3:43pm Dennis Smith that would be "are" not "is: 3:44pm Dennis Smith Paul - what's that number compare to from one year ago? 3:44pm Susan Burns NMarie - do they participate in communities and networks? 3:44pm MN Headhunter I am not trying to be snob but if relying on job boards to find people, shut the hell up about a War For Talent 3:44pm Rayanne True MN Headhunter 3 if I remember right 3:44pm Dennis Smith Amen, brother P 3:45pm MN Headhunter 3 if I remember right 3:45pm Susan Burns Paul - i would say the same about university recruitment 3:45pm Maren Hogan Sometimes when I mentioned customized jobsites or rss feeds people don't even know what I am talking about 3:45pm NMarie Memberships to RN Associations depending on state and pub magazine...some websites are trying 3:45pm Dennis Smith Wow....the times are a changin 3:45pm Maren Hogan they say" but we have a jobs page". sigh 3:45pm Rayanne good recrutiers don't wait for candidates to come to them 3:45pm Rayanne they go get 'em 3:45pm NMarie to capture more social networking... still in the learning phase! Susan Burns seems like healthcare could create a very cool community around learning, sharing, helping, ..... 3:46pm Susan Kang Nam learning phase as well... 3:46pm Maren Hogan the thing that strikes me about socnets community etc, is the power of the individual can sometimes eclipse the power of the corp presence and in effect be a "beard" for a lame duck employer 3:46pm Maren Hogan not that there's anything wrong with that. . . 3:46pm MN Headhunter To use another analogy, if you hunt all day (job boards) and never farm (develop relationships) if the hunted move away, get smaller, or are less of them you are screwed. 3:46pm Rayanne Having spent five years in H/C recruitment, I firnly believe an online community would eb extremely beneficial 3:47pm Susan Burns maren - absolutely - the community owns the brand! if companies don't play they lose complete control. 3:47pm Susan Burns Rayanne - isn't beeker targeting healthcare? NMarie Yes, Susan there is a window of opportunity... for all healthcare recruiters..thus - I'm IN! 3:48pm Slouch Beaker is targeting life sciences 3:48pm Rayanne I think so. 3:48pm Susan Burns NMarie - I hope you'll continue to share your progres with us 3:48pm Rayanne Life Sciences is to broad 3:48pm Rayanne that's like targeting Human Resources to catch the recrutiers 3:48pm NMarie Thanks to venues like this...we each listen and learn... Gotz to go! Take care Y'ALL! 3:49pm Susan Burns Thanks for the FABULOUS discussion everyone. I need to logoff and go back to the conference. presenting in a few 3:49pm Slouch says the online community for the life sciences industry 3:49pm Rayanne Thanks Susan and everyone else... 3:49pm Susan Burns Jason - thanks for creating an archive of today's chat - can't wait to read through it agai! 3:49pm Susan Kang Nam Thanks Susan and everyone. 3:49pm Chet Volpe thanks all... 3:49pm Susan Burns Everyone - please let me know if there's a topci idea for the future? 3:50pm Slouch Thanks susan. I have a copy of the text. ill post it soon 3:50pm Susan Burns oops that was topic - adios!! 3:50pm…
- Added by Slouch at 4:04pm on June 10, 2008
- Comment on: Topic 'Recruiting Scientists News'
- private ownership and control of the means of production, and I generally agree with his analyses. I couldn’t possibly agree with him more with regard to one of his concluding paragraphs in the Times article entitled: "$1 trillion package has something for everyone." Obama’s appointees to the energy and environmental regulatory agencies will work to prevent new coal plants from being built, and to arrange financial and regulatory subsidies for wind and solar power. Pressure on the car industry will be unrelenting and irresistible. In hock to the government, the big three Detroit automakers will have to respect the wishes of congressmen who have never sold a car, and produce green cars in which consumers have shown little interest. Change there will be, but whether it will contribute to economic recovery and long-term growth, or impede it, is an open question. I would like to add to the above that I have noted that deceptively simple phrases to describe and therefore supposedly to help us to understand complex phenomena are all the rage in our contemporary sound-bite utilizing, attention deficit reinforcing, society. Carl Marx would be glad to know that one of his philosophical/psychological tenets has been adopted by the poorly educated personnel of the media and its punditry; they have discovered that by just repeating a phrase often enough it becomes established for their non-discriminating readers and auditors as the “truth.” We therefore now have “global warming” used to describe not only any rise in average temperature anywhere in the world for a time period selected carefully to illustrate whatever point of view is being professed, but, astonishingly, the same phrase is also used to note cooling and record cold anywhere as somehow predicted by the very existence of “global warming.” I note today that we now have wide use of the wonderfully non-informative and non-descriptive phrase, “advanced batteries”, to describe experimental and frequently peripheral science, i.e., inquiries that are not uniformly reproducible-sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t-that cannot and do not in fact result in an advance over the practical technology in place. The morally undefined philosophical/sociological term “better for the purpose intended” is assumed in all such references to “advanced “technologies of any kind. If you’re skeptical about my point then explain to me please why an atomic weapon is an advance over a bomb constructed with chemical explosives. It has turned out that the rapid changes in technology of the past generation have left journalists far behind in their economic understanding of what is practical and what is advanced. This has spawned a genuine advance, a better form of hucksterism. The scientists and engineers whose agenda it is to get funding for their projects now sell the press, and through it hopefully the public, on the idea that their particular technology or discovery represents an advance and is therefore better. The logic is “all advances are improvements….” Of course there is always the problem of economics, but since economic analysis does not lend itself to sound bites it is ignored by the media. Advanced Nonsense: The Politics of Alternate Energy We live in the age of Harry Potter solutions to economic problems. This means that our politicians and financial elites get to ignore the physical laws that have been discovered to govern, without exception, the utilization and conversion of energy from one form to another. Our leaders also feign complete indifference to the actual measured quantities of, and the accessibility to us of, the natural resources of energy, metals, and minerals which the earth possesses. Finally they claim that the most basic of economic laws, that of supply and demand is too complex to be understood except by a few who are skilled with the use of computers. The popular song asks “Do you believe in magic?” It would be less mellifluous but more accurate to ask “Do you believe in the bullshit coming out of Washington and Wall Street?’ The political bias of the mainstream media (MSM) is so obvious that its readership has nosedived to now be constituted of just those partisans who are true believers in whatever cause the newspaper, magazine, or broadcaster supports. The nonsensical and so-called financial analysis in the same publications has now entered the realm of pure fiction unless you filter it through the political bias already mentioned and a cultural elitism that simply reeks of the philosophy that one mustn’t question one’s ‘betters.’ Once serious, i.e., relatively balanced in their reporting, publications such as Newsweek and Time now have the form and, more and more, the sound bite and snippet style content of graphic novels, the euphemism that has replaced the more accurate term “comic books.” The New York Times, for example, is so incredibly biased, and generally inaccurate as well, as to be unreadable. It masquerades as serious by publishing biased, factually inaccurate, polemics. In my own travels, I once had the occasion to watch Nicolai Ceausescu speak on Romanian television for 6 hours on the glory (accruing to his masterful leadership) of meeting factory production schedules for tractors in a five year plan. The difference between socialist Romania in the 1980s and oligarchic New York in the 2000s is that everyone in Romania knew that the factory production figures were made up to fit the leader’s analysis and that; in any case, the tractors were crap that needed fixing every day. The New York Times thinks that its crap analysis doesn’t stink and so never needs fixing. Why should investors in minor metals care about any of this? Because they are getting nonsensical “analysis” of future supply and demand-the key factors to future price-from the glib ignoramuses populating the airwaves, the press, and the seats of financial and political power. Investors in minor metals need only to look at the results of following the advice of the self-centered greed-driven financial wizards and mining analysts of Wall Street firms in combination with the crisis solution agendas of the single minded, i.e., driven solely by the desire to be re-elected, hereditary politicians and their appointees in Washington to know that not a single one of these elites knows even how to salvage their own assets from the current massive destruction of confidence, credit, and wealth except by gaming the system, i.e., using insider knowledge and connections, and breaking the very rules and laws they themselves have written or sworn to enforce, to take the risk out of the equation even though those actions are always unethical and mostly illegal. I am speaking of men like Christopher Dodd and Charles Rangel. I’m going to give you some short term and some long term investing advice based not on what the political and financial elites say but on the results of what they have done, are doing, and say they will continue to do: Note first that Wall Street and Washington types believe in magic, not science. Even more important for investors is the fact that America’s elites, in particular those who have never worked for a living nor had the need to do so, such as Al Gore or HRH Princess Caroline of New York, only admit into their inner circles, for basking in the radiance of their presences, those who, like them, do not have a clue about the economy that created the America they dominate or the economies that are growing, successfully, in China, India, Brazil, and Russia. The elites believe that it is not important to take notice of the fact that the world’s strongest economies, from the point of view of future growth, are all based on two paramount factors: 1. Domestic self-sufficiency in, or control over, the exploration for and the production of natural resources of metals, minerals, and energy, and 2. The creation and maintenance of a domestic OEM heavy industrial sector that can manufacture consumer goods such as motor vehicles, aircraft, locomotives, ocean-going freight carrying vessels ,construction equipment, mining machinery, and home appliances, and is always ready to produce armaments for national defense. The above two factors are the reasons that the United States entered the 21st century as the world’s largest economy and the only military power able to project sufficient force to win a war to any location on earth. Americans believe that the American form of republican government in combination with our type of free market economy is what put our country where it is today. The BRIC economies believe that the two factors enumerated above are the real reasons that America grew to its present pre-eminence and that therefore if established by them individually will underpin and sustain them as great financial and military powers and that such will not depend on whether or not they are politically monarchies, dictatorships, republics, or democracies, and will not depend on whether their economic systems are free market or command economies or a mixture of both. Incredibly, the American elite and self-perpetuating ruling class has bet against the BRIC economies being right and has chosen until now to bet the wealth and security of the USA on a fantasy globalization based on a fantasy global adherence to free market principles, which principles not only do not operate within the USA but do not operate at all among the BRIC economies all of which are focused only on improving their own positions in the global economy no matter what the consequences to any other states. It may well be fatal to the perpetuation of American power to raise the wall of protectionism at this point in our history. Yet the latest person elected to the office of President represents a party the interests of which are dominated by purchasing through paying above market prices for labor the votes of the self serving unions, and economically as well as historically illiterate elites and political leaders the only interest of whom is in the accumulation of personal wealth or perpetual re-election or both. All of these people are what the Soviets used to refer to as “cosmopolitans” defined as individuals who put the interest of a global polity ahead of their responsibility to the well being of the state in which they live. So, you can make money in the market by watching for the resonance, that is to say the reinforcing, of the intersection of magic technologies and the attention of America’s ruling political elites. Magic technologies are those which solve problems without taking into consideration the availability of the raw materials and engineering processes required to build them or the economics of their production and distribution. In the short term I suggest that you invest in the fantasy alternate energy plays. The market will respond to the Obama alternate energy, “green,” stimulus by bidding up the price of the shares of the companies that claim they are working on ”advanced’ anything such as 1) rechargeable batteries, 2) wind generation of electricity, or 3) solar energy conversion. My model for this advice to you is the immediate reaction of the market to the money authorized to be wasted by the Bush administration, in conjunction politically with the self-serving Pelosi-Reid ‘led’ government, on subsidizing the American owned and operated OEM automotive industry for another month or two. The Wall Street ‘market makers’ responded to this destruction (waste) of wealth by bidding up the price of GM stock over just a few days to twice what it was selling for at the beginning of the phony time period during which the government was ‘considering its options.’ As I am writing this I note that it has already begun to sink in to the ‘investors’ that the long term prospects of the car makers are not really very bright if they say that they cannot survive even a couple of days without massive access to the Federal teat. Of course a cynic might just think that the short sellers are exercising their ‘judgment.’ After all, a swing of 16% in one day, such as GM had late in 2008, can make a Wall Street ‘professional’ a great deal of money. Returning to the discussion of fantasy green energy plays: Get out of investments in the future of companies subsidized by government as soon as it becomes obvious that there is going to have to be a second stimulus package given to them. This will be apparent when there are no results from the ‘advanced’ work and all of the companies say that ‘they are on the right track’ but need more money. This should take about 6 months, but as auditors look into, or make, the cost-benefit analyses of ‘advanced’ or ‘game changing’ technologies the collapse of market interest may occur in a much shorter time. Switch your money at that point, when you smell the need for a second bailout, to those surviving companies specializing in producing the raw materials for existing, workable, and economically practical technologies such as, in the case of the vehicle propulsion battery space, lead-acid (SLI and traction), nickel cadmium, and nickel metal hydride batteries. I would also then invest in lithium-ion (storage) batteries, wind for off grid use, silicon based solar, both crystalline and amorphous, and uranium and thorium based nuclear electric power generation. A final word about ‘advanced’ technology development. As a young man I once heard the best politician ever to come out of Minnesota, Hubert Horatio Humphrey (DFL-Mn) give some legislative drafting advice-I was in law school at the time and I was in a legislative drafting class. Vice President Humphrey, as he then was, said that in the 1950s when he and some other like-minded liberal senators were trying to draft legislation to expand subsidized college education to include not only G.I.s, but also the poor and disadvantaged who were otherwise qualified. The senate majority leader at the time, Lyndon B. Johnson( D-Tx), told Humphrey that if he wished to get the backing of the (Democrat party) majority for a bill that would help not just poor whites but also poor blacks he would need to label it so that questioning the bill automatically meant questioning the patriotism of the questioning senator himself. Humphrey said that Johnson took a copy of the proposed bill and wrote in front of the title word ‘education’ the two magic words “National Defense.” The rest is (legislative) history. Note well that the stimulus package in the Eisenhower administration was the National Defense Highway Act, which created the interstate highway system. Michigan was the first state to spend a billion dollars on the extensions of the interstate highways that went through Michigan and on the state highway “feeder” roads for that system. It was this ‘stimulus’ package not any advances in automotive technology that ignited the boom years for the OEM automotive, construction equipment , and mining machinery industries. The reductions in time necessary to get from the suburb to a job in the city and to get food and raw materials from where they were produced to where they were consumed ignited the dramatic growth of the United States outside of the east and Midwest. This could have been accomplished alternately by building national, intra-city, and intercity railroads as Europe did at the time, but OEM automotive industry politics in the USA overcame railroad politics and both mass transit and freight carrying passed from being carried by durable steel wheels on durable steel rails to being transported on disposable rubber tires on concrete highways that needed constant attention thus created jobs and the need for enormous quantities of raw materials all across the country. What a deal! Consumerism was born, lived long, and prospered. Without further ado, I am going to now list for you a group of companies related by the products which they are trying to develop, their business goals, and their agendas. I think you can make money by investing in them but solely on the basis of their relationship to the political goals of the Obama agenda for alternate energy. These investments are based on the truism that in allocating your investments timing is just as important always as project selection. On December 18, 2008 the Wall Street Journal carried a story based on a press release that day announcing that [L]eading U.S. battery and advanced [emphasis mine] materials companies, with support from one of the country’s largest national laboratories [The U.S. Department of Energy’s Argonne National Laboratory {just outside of Chicago}], have formed the National Alliance for Advanced [emphasis, again, mine]Transportation Battery Cell manufacture, known as the “Alliance,” to manufacture advanced lithium ion battery cells for transportation applications in the United States. The Alliance is trying to get a lot of taxpayer money to accomplish a completely amorphous goal, the members want to develop some fantasy process technology which will be flexible, so that it is adaptable to the mass production of whichever of the 26 lithium ion battery technologies now being “researched’ turns out to be the one that is safe, durable, long lived, and economical for the electrification of a limited range of passenger carrying vehicles-the electrification of long range high capacity freight carrying vehicles is a topic that is not even whispered about; it is too difficult a task for the foreseeable future. Note well how many times the word advanced appears in just the first paragraph of the press release. Note also that the Alliance is centered upon a U.S. Department of Energy Laboratory operated near the actual home of the soon-to-be sitting President of the U.S., so that the project’s money will flow to and through the new President’s home state. The fact that funding for this particular laboratory has lately been drying up is, of course, coincidental. The fact that the project would make more sense if it were directed by the NREL, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Colorado, is also irrelevant. The Alliance is thus founded on that most fundamental of American political practices bringing home the bacon. It will almost certainly get its first allocation of Federal Funding early in the Obama presidency and will get more money as its research advances. The members of the Alliance are: * 3M (NYSE:MMM) * ActaCell (Private?) * All Cell Technologies (Private) * Altair Nanotechnologies (NasdaqCM: ALTI) * Dontech Global (Private) * Eagle-Picher Corporation (Private) * EnerSys (NYSE:ENS) * Envia Systems, (Private) * FMC (NYSE:FMC) * MicroSun Technologies (Private) * Mobius Power (Private) * Silyte (Private) * Superior Graphite (private) * Townsend Advanced Energy (Private) Note well the main reason that companies seek Federal funding; it is because private funding has no political agenda and is therefore not interested in taking the risk of getting little or no return based on 1) the state of development and the quality of the company’s technology, 2) the quality (i.e., competence perceived or demonstrated) of its management, or 3) whether or not the size of the losses incurred by the company so far are such that they can never be recovered in a rational amount of time. Additionally note how many of the above companies are private even the one that has a long and famous history, Eagle-Picher. The fact that so many of the alliance members are private is most likely an indication that they fail all or one of the above enumerated tests that private capital requires them to pass. To be fair some of them may have been ‘taken’ private by a fund in order to fatten them up for an IPO or to consolidate them with another company for a more substantial IPO. No matter how these companies got to their present inability to proceed without an amount of capital that was not available to them as constituted from the private market they are all now in the same boat; they cannot raise enough capital individually to both continue the development of whatever battery technology they have chosen as the one and to engineer a manufacturing process suitable for mass production. Note well that EaglePicher, Enersys, Microsun Technologies, and Superior Graphite are all pursuing or manufacturing other battery types besides lithium based ones. Even so they are in the same boat as the others they do not have nor can they raise sufficient capital to engineer mass production techniques and to build a flexible facility with the capacity to mass produce automotive power train batteries. The Alliance is not the sum of its parts; it is a group of undercapitalized companies, which have come together to grab a piece of the alternate energy pie in the hopes that the pie will be an open ended feast allowing them to keep getting more money even if and when they go down the wrong path or make a mistake. The free market is very harsh and cruel to such supplicants, but politicians allocate money to ensure their own re-election, not to serve a public good, so the Alliance is now on to a good thing. If they get public money they will not have to compete in the market place for it, and if anyone or more of them is successful they will not have to pay back their part of the ‘funding.’ Thus private enterprise as a driver of innovation and economic advantage will be driven out of the market for battery advancement probably therefore killing the possibility of developing an ‘advanced’ battery system. In any case, my advice is simple: If you see that the Alliance is going to receive funding then buy shares in those members of the alliance that are public and then watch the news carefully for mention of positive results by any member of the Alliance, listed publicly or not. Such news will cause the market to rise for whatever play there is in the Alliance. I would sell any Alliance-related shares that I own if they go up by a predetermined amount, say 10%, and then buy them back when the news quiets down and the market loses interest as no news is forthcoming. You will know when the Alliance has run through its funding. This will be when stories begin to follow one another that a breakthrough is imminent but that some further federal lard may need to be spread on the stale bread. The available stock will drop on this negative news. Choose a bottom and buy. When the Department of Energy announces that it will provide the additional funding let the stock rise to your target gain and dump it like an overheating lithium ion laptop battery. I suspect that we will see one or two cycles of this “Advanced Nonsense” this year, 2009. After that it will become obvious that the project is nothing more than An open ended subsidy program, and the DOE will try to get out of it, not by canceling it and admitting an error on the part of the administration but by trying to auction off its ‘share’ of any technology or engineering process development to private equity. The ticking time-bomb for this whole exercise in government mismanagement of the development of “Advanced” technology is of course the progress, if any, being made simultaneously by companies like America’s A123, France’s SAFT [Paris: SAFT.PA], and Korea’s LG [KSE: 066570.KS]. The three companies named above have all been selected by an OEM automotive supplier to develop a lithium ion technology. A123 and SAFT have been paired with Johnson Controls International (JCI), the world’s largest manufacturer of lead-acid SLI batteries in order to have JCI ready to engineer a mass production operation for a successful lithium ion technology should one occur. SAFT and LG have each also been mass producing batteries for many years. None of them even though they may plan to mass produce lithium ion batteries for vehicular power trains in the USA will join the “Alliance,” because they don’t want to share any competitive advantage either in battery technology or battery mass production technology with the small, undercapitalized, jonnies-come-lately. It is therefore very important to watch the press releases and progress of these three. If a car such as the GM Chevrolet Volt is introduced into the market and performs well with a battery from A123, SAFT, or LG or any combination of them and it is announced that JCI or, perhaps, EXIDE will put the battery into mass production then the purpose of the Alliance and all of its work will be perceived as valueless as will the price of the shares of any of the members of the Alliance at that point-even if this is unfair. A123 was supposed to launch an IPO last month; it did not, for obvious reasons. SAFT and LG are both listed on their home country exchanges. For the moment then I would take any profits I made by investing in the Alliance play I have here discussed and buy shares of JCI, SAFT, and LG as a hedge. I have not discussed the relative merits of any lithium ion battery technologies, because they don’t really matter when an investment has become totally politicized and has left the arena of the free market. With “Advanced” battery technology and the Alliance for developing and manufacturing it play the politics. The hereditary political and financial elites of this country do not know and do not wish to know anything about technology; they will throw other people’s money at anything that buys them votes and power. The rest of us may as well make some of our own money back in the meantime.…
- Added by Melissa Furtwengler to Wanted Scientists, Energy experts, Engineers at 9:55am on January 12, 2009
- Blog Post: Irritating co-workers. The definitive list.
I originally wrote these observations with the intent of making some kind of HR Top Trumps game out of them. I thought it would make a nice leave-behind gift for recruiters, but as I am no…
- Added by Alasdair Murray at 10:24am on January 10, 2010
- Topic: Talent Talk Cafe - Chat Transcript: Recruiter to Recruiter - Exploring High Performance Relationships
- as an interesting look into a variety of tools. As a side note - I'd really like to see more corporate recruiters join in the discussion. The relationship between these two groups is an important one. In the end, regardless of approach, it always came back to relationships. Are any of these tools industry disruptors? Probably not, but for some at least another tool in the toolbox. Thanks to Erica from BountyJobs for diving in mid-stream and providing some interesting stats about their results. Susan Burns Hi everyone! Welcome to Talent Talk Cafe! 3:00pm Slouch Hi Jim 3:00pm Susan Burns Hi Jim - lurk about and thanks for stopping by! 3:01pm Susan Burns I thought it would be interesting to look at the relationship between corporate and 3rd party recruiters since we have such a great mix on RB.com 3:01pm Slouch what is your take on it? 3:01pm Susan Burns Do corporate and 3rd party recruiters share the same values and priorities? 3:02pm SlouchI don;t think so 3:02pm Sean Rehderme neither. 3:02pm Susan Burns What do you see as the major differences? 3:02pm Sean Rehder drivers/personalities 3:03pm Susan Burns Hi Sean! Can you elaborate a bit more on those two traits 3:03pm Sean Rehder 3rd party...usually paid on commission...so $ is the driver... 3:04pm Sean Rehder corp recruiters...lifestyle...company values...more socical aspects are the drivers 3:04pm Slouch I think 3rd party recruiters want to close deals 3:04pm Susan Burns Commission is def a big differnece. I know a lot of corp recruiters who believe they should get commission 3:04pm Sean Rehder agree with slouch 3:04pm Slouch I don;t see anything wrong with it either 3:04pm Sean Rehder close deals to get the commish 3:05pm Susan Burns Corp recruiters want to close deals too but have a lot more to manager with hiring manager relationships 3:05pm Sean Rehder i think they also take more of "I'm a consultant" approach rather then I'm here to support you 3:05pm Susan Burns Does anyone know of corp recruiters who get commission or incentive for results? 3:06pm Susan Burns Sean - is the consultant approach directed towards corp or 3rd party? 3:06pm Sean Rehder 3rd party does it...I'm sure some corp rec do it..but I don't think that many... 3:06pm Sean Rehder that starts from the top down... 3:07pm Susan Burns Do you think that the commission is the main reason why corp recruiters go 3rd party? 3:07pm Sean Rehder corp structure doesn't exactly allow for it. 3:07pm Sean Rehder more than that...can control their workload...only work with responsise HM's if they want 3:07pm Sean Rehder corp recruiters don't get to choose their reqs/hiring managers. 3rd part does. 3:08pm Susan Burns I've seen the hiring manager workload alone lead to stress and burnout so the independence is attractive 3:08pm Sean Rehder but you need to kill to eat...there in lies the risk. 3:08pm Sean Rehder no security in third part or independent. 3:08pm Susan Burns Re consultative approach. I always developed my recruiters to also play the role of consultants. 3:08pm Sean Rehder you better be good at what you do. :) 3:09pm Sean Rehder how so? 3:09pm Susan Burns Interestingly, I don't see as many 3rd party recruiters play the role of consultant. 3:09pm Slouch most consultants I would think get paid for the process 3:10pm Slouch non retained recruiters get paid when they make a placement 3:10pm Susan Burns When I think of a recruiter as a consultant its helping companies to expand their thinking around talent. 3:10pm Slouch and they probably get paid for the work they do 3:10pm Sean Rehder let me clairfy, by consultant I mean come in as an expert...full of direction and information. 3:10pm Susan Burns Specifically, its working to position the best candidate that may not be the exact fit but have even more potential 3:11pm Sean Rehder not the way you are paid (1099) 3:11pm Susan Burns I agree Sean! And would like to think that's an area to add more value 3:11pm Susan Burns Tell me about the market? Identify talent with transferrable skills when trying to fill roles that require unique skill sets. 3:12pm Sean Rehder goes to the recruiting animals queston that he seems to always ask...do you specialize? 3:12pm Susan Burns Can you "specialize" but also address talent adjencies to broaden your talent reach? 3:13pm Sean Rehder Bountyjobs.com and Dayak.com both gave demo's at OnRec 3:13pm Susan Burns I like their models. Did they share results? 3:13pm Sean Rehder great use of technology to create interaction/relationships 3:14pm Sean Rehder I know of success with bountyjobs..don't know about dayak. 3:14pm Sean Rehder but it also had to do with using the tool as one piece in the relationship...but not the whole relationship 3:14pm Sean Rehder...from what I know of. 3:15pm Susan Burns Do you think they could be a disruptor to executive search like the Internet has been for the travel biz? Remember travel agents - don't see too many any longer 3:15pm Sean Rehder the failures seem to come where the whole relationship is purely the portal 3:15pm Sean Rehder its post in pray in reverse. lol 3:15pm Susan Burns Good to see it still comes back to relationsihps 3:16pm Sean Rehder but overall...its a great tool for companies because of consolidated billing thorugh one portal that can be meaured 3:16pm Sean Rehder always does it seems. 3:16pm Slouch I think the expectations when a company signs up to one of these systems is that it will be wildly successful 3:16pm Slouch and it's not 3:17pm Susan Burns Jason - isn't that often the problem with new technologies? 3:17pm Sean Rehder nope..takes some work.. 3:17pm Slouch it's nt that it does not work, it's just that making placements is not easy 3:17pm Susan Burns Looking for the silver bullet and its one more tool to work into the strategy 3:17pm Slouch and when you take out the relationship part of it, it makes it even harder 3:18pm Susan Burns They could lead to new relationships as well....if its approached with that in mind - yes? 3:18pm Ben Gotkin Susan - Yes! Hey everyone 3:18pm Susan Burns Hi Ben! Thanks for stopping by! 3:18pm Slouch Hi Ben 3:18pm Susan Burns Ben - have you used BountyJobs or Dayak? 3:19pm Ben Gotkin Hey JD 3:19pm Slouchit's Dayak 3:19pm Susan Burns btw - Dayak sounds like an insurance company 3:19pm Sean Rehder and there is talentmaze.com too 3:19pm Ben Gotkin No, familiar with Bounty Jobs, not Dayak 3:19pm Ben Gotkin I haven't seen how something like Bounty Jobs could work in a highly competitive industry like the one I'm in 3:19pm Sean Rehder i think those are the only players so far. 3:19pm Slouch if you look at the home page for BountyJobs, the pictures make it look lik making money is easy 3:20pm Ben Gotkin Talent doesn't come cheap in Public Accounting 3:20pm Sean Rehder slouch...you seem to take my $ pretty easy. 3:20pm Sean Rehder at the poker table. 3:20pm pam claughton Susan, BountyJobs doesn't make sense for more experienced recruiters who value the relationship building aspect. It seems better for newer recruiters who don't have many clients 3:20pm Susan Burns Ben - maybe you could retrain some investment bankers to be accountants ;-( 3:20pm Ben Gotkin I'm more concerned with working with TPRs I can trust anyway. They will earn their fee if they deliver great talent 3:20pm Slouch that is because you are a lousy poker representative for this industry 3:20pm Slouch that was for sean, not you Ben 3:21pm Maren Hogan hey all! 3:21pm Susan Burns Hi Pam! 3:21pm Susan Burns Hi Maren 3:21pm Ben Gotkin Slouch - that's right, I outlasted you last time we played 3:21pm Susan Burns Are you guys getting lost in poker talk ;-) only 72 hours to go! 3:21pm Slouch I know, I know 3:21pm Maren Hogan Are we talking about BJ, Dayak, TalentMaze and TalentHire right now? 3:21pm Susan Burns Pam - agree with you that it could be enticing to someoone new who doesn't have established relationships 3:22pm Susan Burns Hey Maren - yes - it came up while talking about value of relationships between recruiters 3:22pm Ben Gotkin Susan - we've lost alot of talent to the financial services industry over the past few years, we might just be hearing back from them again very soon :-) 3:22pm Susan Burns Maren = have you used any of them 3:22pm Sean Rehder I think if you are thinking, "hey...no relationships" then you will fail at using these. 3:22pm Slouch I was taught that as a recruiter you should be only concerned with positions you can fill, not all of the positions you have access to. this is where these systems put the emphasis 3:22pm Susan Burns Ben - I think you'll be getting some calls soon 3:23pm Sean Rehder slouch..do you think that having access to more JO's lets you do more cherry picking? 3:23pm Slouch it's a distraction 3:23pm Sean Rehder getting to those A type Search assignments? 3:23pm Sean Rehde rhmm... 3:24pm Slouch Sean, you thinking about folding? 3:24pm Sean Rehder lol 3:24pm Sean Rehder all in. 3:24pm Susan Burns That's interesting from a corp perspective. As a 3rd party recruiter would you then set expectations with corp recruiters about results? 3:24pm Maren Hogan Susan, sorry got booted off wifi. Th answer is yes, I have 3:24pm Slouch you should 3:25pm Slouch and that is if I may, plug one of the tracks that Scott Love will be talking about 3:25pm Susan Burns I've seen a mixed bag - think it depends on how hungry they are for biz 3:25pm Susan Burns Maren - do u want to share anything about using BountyJobs - or, whichever one you used 3:26pm Susan Burns Guess we lost her 3:26pm Sean Rehder what about all the companies that don't have "recruiters"...hiring managers are left to do it them selves...interesting to see how these app's work for them. 3:26pm Slouch it's exposure 3:27pm Slouch and that is not a bad thing 3:27pm Maren Hogan the ones that have worked have people who emerge from behind the technology 3:27pm Ben Gotkin Good point Sean, could be very useful in those situations 3:27pm Maren Hogan to interact with recruiters who specialize in those fields 3:27pm Vincent Baasa and many of the Hiring Managers are getting into Self Recruiting these days 3:27pm Susan Burns Hi Vincent - thanks for joining 3:27pm Vincent Baasa My Pleasure 3:28pm Maren Hogan I also have often thought that it would be more effective to have these boards "niche" themselves but I don't think that's going to happen 3:28pm Susan Burns Vincent - do you see hiring managers using any specific tools 3:28pm Julia Stone hey guys, I hear talk about poker & bounty jobs 3:28pm Susan Burns Hi Julia - thanks for stopping by 3:28pm Ben Gotkin Hey, it's the SourceCon poker champ! Hey Julia! 3:28pm Slouch ma little bit Julia? 3:28pm Slouch Julia, you won? 3:28pm Maren Hogan TH and TM both have smart people behind them who reach out to specific shops and point out appropriate reqs 3:28pm Vincent BaasaYes - I know lot of the Managers that I work with use Associations and local yellow pages to get the job done 3:29pm Julia Stone yes I won 3:29pm Julia Stone took down the big 4 on my way 3:29pm Slouch well, for sure the field will be much tougher in Toronto 3:29pm Susan Burns So HMs are using netowrking groups more so than newer technologies 3:29pm Vincent Baasa yup 3:29pm Sean Rehder do hm's use any technolgogy? besides email/phone? 3:30pm Susan Burns I always thought H3 would do better than it did. BTW - is it still around? 3:30pm Vincent Baasa I myself used many in the process in my early days to fill internal positions 3:30pm Maren Hogan I have not heard of H3 3:30pm Sean Rehder dead in the water 3:30pm Susan Burns HMs use LinkedIn, Facebook, and other SNS that they associate with 3:30pm Slouch are they finished? 3:30pm Susan Burns SEan - for real - they folded? 3:30pm Maren Hogan But I think the ones that insist on the cloak and dagger business or no communication quickly scare off recruiters 3:30pm Sean Rehderwell...not sure...but c'mon 3:31pm Susan Burns Hey Maren - lost the flow of your comments. What was the last comment directed to? 3:31pm Sean Rehder their major flaw was it was hard to find the jobs to work....my 2 cents 3:31pm Ben Gotkin Never liked H3 (the concept) much, paying people outside of your organization for referrals typically doesn't work well 3:31pm Sean Rehder had to be in someone's network who was a customer..and they had to invite you...etc...too much work 3:31pm Susan Burns H3 also changed the rules and made it cost prohibitive for most jobs 3:31pm Maren Hogan These recruiter marketplaces. If they won't let you speak with the HMs, it's doomed 3:32pm Sean Rehderthey won't let you? I thought it was the HM's choice? 3:32pm Susan Burns I was always at odds with the Ben. If asking someone to do some footwork and they know you are saving lots of $$ by not using a recruiter - why not pay them? 3:32pm Maren Hogan No IF. Some do, some don't 3:32pm Slouch I think Maren, it is more some of the hiring managers using the systems think that this is great now that I don;t have to talk to the recruiters 3:32pm Dean Lockett Mutual of Omaha used to use something called RecruitersAlliance or RecruitAlliance. You had to pay 150/mth or something to belong, but you did get hiring managers calling to talk to candidates, don't know if that is still out there or not 3:32pm Maren Hogan yeah well that won't work 3:33pm Maren Hogan it is 3:33pm Julia Stone I think 2 things as an agency recruiter 3:33pm Susan Burns Hi Dean 3:33pm Dean Lockett Hello 3:33pm Maren Hogan I think the only way for it to be equitable is if there is some sort of rating system on both sides 3:33pm Julia Stone amen, maren 3:33pm Julia Stone you beat me to point #2 3:33pm Susan Burns I remember Recruiters Alliance but haven't seen them lately 3:33pm Ben Gotkin Susan - It's an interesting concept, but I have yet to see it work in a sustained manner, that's all. People make referrals primarily because they want to help someone. 3:34pm Slouch I really think a rating system will not work in this industry 3:34pm Sean Rehder i've seen numbers backing Ben 3:34pm Julia Stone point #1 is that they are easy to use for both recruiters (who don't like calling new clients) and for clients from a billing perspective 3:34pm Maren Hogan I also think frankly, that the bar is so low on a lot of these sites that HMs really get excited when you produce someone quality and reach out and try to bring a consultant view to the table 3:35pm Susan Burns RE H3 & sutainability - it tested the limits of your network. The point of over tapping arrived too quickly if not managed well 3:36pm Sean Rehder slouch...why not? 3:36pm Vincent BaasaI totally agree with you Maren...Quality always strikes !!!! 3:36pm Slouch you may get rated on things you have no control over 3:36pm Sean Rehder like... 3:37pm Slouch I don;t see any self respecting high biller putting themselves out there to be rated by an unhappy client, candidate or other recruiter 3:37pm Slouch it's not ebay where you sell something and ship it 3:37pm Dean Lockett Sean - how would u rate whether it's client abililty to respond, recruiter ability, software, candidates too many variables 3:37pm Maren Hogan I actually was thinking of a two sided system like on eBay. Of, course, people get screwed there as well. ardon my language 3:37pm Sean Rehderi keep "my rating" simple...response time and feedback. 3:38pm Susan BurnsDo you all think that relationships between 3rd party and corporate recruiters are the same, better, or worse than they were 5 years ago 3:38pm Sean Rehder that's from a recruiter's perspecttive on candidates and HM's 3:38pm Maren Hogan Yeah and maybe there could simply be checkboxes, sat or unsat in categories like Sean's and some others 3:38pm Dean Lockett With you there, test the order, see if it's real, look at response time 3:39pm Sean Rehder Dean..yes. And then I want a timely answer returned with feedback..either way..don't always get it..but want it 3:39pm Maren Hogan I think with an adequate rating systems, boards like this could be a lot more equitable. Right now, it's too ambiguous to be profitable, unless you have nothing better to do. 3:40pm Dean Lockett I think it's spaghetti at the wall concept mostly on these sites 3:40pm Sean Rehder the basic rating..I think all 3rd party recruiters do is some variance of the A, B, and C req. 3:40pm Dean Lockettor A B C candidate 3:40pm Erica Jayne Walshhey 3:40pm Maren Hogan Did Susan give up on us? :) 3:40pm Sean Rehder Dean..in the beginning..but I'm "hoping" that once you find the sticky spagehtti...the tools will work. 3:40pm Slouch Hey Erica 3:40pm Katie Tierney I agree with Jason D - there are too many variables to control to make a rating system feasible. 3:41pm Sean Rehder and you'll go old school and work the A reqs. 3:41pm Susan Burns I'm just letting you guys roll with it....... 3:41pm Katie Tierney(hi everyone, by the way - I'm late!) 3:41pm Susan BurnsHi Erica and Katie - thanks for stopping by. 3:41pm Slouch Erica works with BountyJobs 3:41pm Sean Rehder pushing off the C's and then the B's off your desk. I guess that's a ratting system too 3:41pm Sean Rehderlol 3:41pm Erica Jayne Walsh thanks for the note Jason 3:41pm Julia Stone hey erica, your ears rining? 3:41pm Sean Rehder dang it...a fly just landed on my sandwich. 3:41pm Maren Hogan Well, I'm an idealist I guess. I know TH has a rating system but it's not explained right off the bat 3:42pm Dean Lockett keep the shredder nearby 3:42pm Slouch I let her know this was going on 3:42pm Erica Jayne Walshhey Julia! 3:42pm Susan BurnsErica - can you share any stats about how effective BountyJobs has been with making hires 3:42pm Katie TierneySome advice for 3rd party recruiters - play nice with the internal recruiters. They're not your competition. By the time a company has decided to go to an external vendor, they know that the internal folks can't fill the req. 3:42pm Dean Lockett< waiting with baited breath ;-) 3:42pm Slouch Dean, if a client looks at your candidates, interviews them and makes offers, you are bound to make placements. a dialogue is necessary to make it work ( 3:42pm Erica Jayne Walshwell... we are going to surpass a thousand hires in 2008 alone 3:43pm Susan Burns Can you share how many corp clients you have and how many active recruiters? 3:43pm Dean Lockett Slouch, agreed, that's why I think a lot of these sites are not set up for that 3:43pm Slouch Erica, are you able to tell us how many candidates were submitted in order to get that number 3:44pm Katie Tierney I'm also curious about the engagement/disegnagements and how those affect recruiter ratings on BountyJobs... 3:44pm Erica Jayne Walshwe have thousands of employers... most of whom are small and medium sized. About 100 of the Fortune 500. And more than 10,000 recruiters. But these numbers include the Canadian market 3:44pm Erica Jayne Walsh engagements and disengagements don't affect the ratings on bountyjobs at all 3:44pm Erica Jayne Walsh only fills and candidates that make it into interview 3:45pm Susan Burns So, about 10% of recruiters are making hires - is that about accurate? 3:45pm Dean Lockett Erica, what is the breakdown of 10% fees vs 25% fees or better 3:45pm Katie Tierney But, if you interview someone who is terrible, how do you relate that back to the Recruiter's rating? Or can you? 3:45pm Sean Rehderslouch... what would create value? 3:46pm Katie Tierney(good question Dean - what's the avg. placement fee?) 3:46pm Susan Burns Erica - your being a VERY good sport about this - jumping right into the frey! 3:46pm Maren Hogan Well I think that depends on why they were terrible. Poor pre-screen or BO? One is controllable by the 3PR, the other not so much 3:46pm Erica Jayne Walsh Katie, you can't. We don't allow subjective ratings for that very reason. We believe that the fills speak for themselves... and the candidates that are horrible won't make it into interview 3:47pm Katie Tierney Just playing a bit of devil's advocate - they might make it to the interview based on a really stellar resume (or at least a phone screen) and then blow it royally. 3:47pm Julia Stone erica, what speaks to the "bad" clients? 3:47pm Erica Jayne Walshour average placement fee is around 23K... 3:47pm Erica Jayne Walshlol... we do 3:47pm Sean Rehdererica... and hiring managers can block recruiters, correct 3:47pm Katie Tierney So, I would love to see disengagements included. 3:47pm Erica Jayne Walsh we harrass non responsible employers 3:47pm Susan Burns Erica - can you share that as a percent? 3:47pm Erica Jayne Walsh then we kick them off 3:48pm Erica Jayne Walsh 21% of base salary 3:48pm Slouch I would still be interested in knowing how many candidates have been submitted to get the 1000 hires. That will say a lot 3:48pm Susan Burns So, in the end its about the same as a retained fee. 3:48pm Erica Jayne Walsh my research shows most retained fees are 1/3 3:48pm Dean Lockett Erica - how do you track whether a client is trying to fill their database or not with quality candidates by not responding 3:48pm Susan Burns I've worked more with 25% 3:49pm Susan BurnsErica - do you track average days to fill a role once its posted 3:49pm Dean Lockett Recruiter should stay in contact on those to make sure there aren't discrepencies 3:49pm Susan Burns Or, from candidate presented to hired 3:50pm Erica Jayne Walsh Dean... we are just a technology platform. Our terms of use give the headhunter ownership of that candidate for 6 months. If a recruiter ever discovers that their candidate was hired, we go after the employer to get the fee. 3:50pm Katie Tierney One of the things BountyJobs (or any recruiter/company matching service, for that matter) can't protect against completely is bad people working the system. 3:50pm Katie Tierney BountyJobs does a good job of kicking off abusers, though. 3:50pm Erica Jayne Walsh Susan... we do track it... and its about industry average. We belive thats because of corporations internal processes. As on average.. when companies make a fill.. they get the resume in less than 10 business days 3:51pm Erica Jayne Walsh Slouch... trying to figure out that resume number 3:51pm Slouch thanks 3:51pm Susan Burns JD - thanks for reaching out to Erica - I think we'll have to send her flowers for being such a good sport! 3:51pm Dean Lockett i'm guessing 6 to 1 - 6000 3:52pm Slouch I bet it is way more than that 3:52pm Katie Tierney Send an Edible Arrangement. I got two after my surgery, and they were really good. :) 3:52pm Susan Burns 6:1 would be incredible! 3:52pm Susan Burns 6:1 would be closer to presented to hired. 3:52pm Katie Tierney 6:1 would be amazing. The one position I used BountyJobs for received about 25 resumes, but none were the right fit. 3:52pm Jeff Ingman Hi all... Can I make a short off topic comment without offending? 3:53pm Susan Burns Hi Jeff - yes dive in! 3:53pm Jeff Ingman I'd like to ask if anyone knows Avature? 3:53pm Dean Lockett I'm trying to be kind here to Erica, she's in the hotseat ;-) 3:53pm Jeff Ingman They bill it as a CRM for recruiters 3:53pm Jeff Ingman but it's basically an ATS 3:54pm Dean Lockett It might move my rating up in BJ 3:54pm Susan Burns Their google descripts sounds like its an RPO for offshore sourcing 3:54pm Ben Gotkin I always thought that Avature's main product was Offshored Sourcing. the technology comes with their sourcing services. 3:54pm Slouch Jeff, Michael who works there is on this network http://www.recruitingblogs.com/profile/MikeJohnson 3:55pm Susan Burns Jason - I still can't copy/paste the chat - can you grab todays? 3:55pm Ben Gotkin Like Susan said ;-) 3:55pm Jeff Ingman As I understand Avature was founded by the guy who started HotJobs 3:55pm Slouch I can;t either susan 3:55pm Jeff Ingman They've pitched it to us as a replacement for our ATS 3:55pm Erica Jayne Walsh sorry Jason... I can't get the data from here... sitting in the hallway at TaleoWorld. :) 3:55pm Maren Hogan Is that like LegoWorld? Sorry, couldn't resist 3:56pm Ben Gotkin LOL, good one Maren 3:56pm Susan Burns Jeff - may be a good forum question. Would be interesting to see what the feedback is 3:56pm Slouch np Erica, it would be great data to be able to use to promote your service 3:56pm Susan Burns And, yes, there is a HJ connection 3:56pm Jeff IngmanOK... I'll post there 3:56pm Erica Jayne Walsh I'll certainly look into it when i get back to NYC 3:56pm Susan Burns Maren - can you see if you can copy/paste the chat flow from today 3:56pm Slouch there is only about 10 minutes saved here 3:56pm Maren HoganI'll try. 3:56pm Maren Hoganoh, furge 3:57pm Katie Tierney I can get 2:23PM and after. 3:57pm Susan Burns Jason - I can scroll up and see the whole thing 3:57pm Dean Lockett Maren, is that a new dictionary word? 3:57pm Slouch the entire thing? 3:57pm Slouch not me 3:57pm Julia Stone I have 45 min on my screen, no cut & pasting though 3:57pm Susan Burns Erica - THANK you for stopping by and answering the rapid fire questions! 3:57pm Ben Gotkin I can see back to 10:20AM 3:58pm Susan Burns Yes - I can see up to early this am - 7:20 PT 3:58pm Susan Burns Ben and I are in synch!! 3:58pm Maren Hogan whoa i can't back to 1:18 3:58pm Erica Jayne Walsh No problem Susan... sorry I didn't have all the answers. glad to follow up on this conversation 3:58pm Slouchi can see from 3:44 3:58pm Maren Hogan Erica, from what I have seen, you rep BJ very well. Good show! 3:58pm Susan Burns Ben -can you copy/paste the chat? 3:58pm pam claughton I can see from 3:40 3:59pm Ben Gotkin I'll see what I can do 3:59pm Susan Burns JD - weird that everyone sees something different. ANd, yes, I'm accounting for time zones ;-) 3:59pm Susan BurnsThanks Ben. I'd like to post today's if possible - great conversation! 3:59pm Slouch it's all weird 3:59pm Maren Hogan maybe it depends on how long you've been logged in?? 3:59pm Katie Tierney I think what you see is dependent upon when you open the browser page. 4:00pm Susan Burns I think it may be when you first logged in to RB. I haven't been on consistently since 7…
- Added by Susan Burns at 8:05pm on September 16, 2008
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