eers do are not equivalent to what illusions a magician pulls from a hat, but rather - the product of wisdom they have gained from years of dedicated inquiry, research and deliverables. Who better to start the series than my continuing conversation with Russ Moon, aka, "the Sourcing Samurai".
• Russ Moon
• Sourcing Consultant, Talent Find LLC
• Richmond VA
• RecruitingBlogs Profile
• Office: 804-643-8604
• Mobile: 804-402-2364
Q&A with Russ Moon
Six Degrees: What is the source of your "LOWEST COST OF HIRES" - (least amount of invested resources for the easiest hires, regardless of quality) at your present employer?
Russ: In general employee referrals rank right up there for corporations. The internet with proper candidate development is even less, but frequently is not maximized in terms of the cost reduction potential. This is due to improper structure, inadequate training, process…..it only takes one fundamental block to be out of place to drastically dilute your results.
Six Degrees: What talent niche groups do you target and are these particular talent areas specialized under your review?
Russ: The computer does not know if you are looking for executive chefs, gas turbine start-up engineers or SAP FICO folks…that’s what I love is the variety of searches available. If you know the syntax, tools and techniques you can find what is needed. I love the hunt.
Six Degrees: What types of training in sourcing/recruitment are available to you and have you taken advantage of?
Russ: I have approached my training from a holistic standpoint in that I try to expose myself to a variety of training given that each has its own merits. My goal with each session is to learn at least 3 new things I can try to help me find talent more efficiently and rapidly.
My education started in 2000 when I started with the original AIRS I,II and III (CIR) courses. Then I was fortunate to be on the AIRS University program during my tenure at MeadWestvaco while serving on their centralized recruiting team. I took full advantage and took like 9 courses in 7 months and that saturation training really leapfrogged my ability.
About the same time I recruited Shally to help me go to the next level and started his apprenticeship program. We worked together several times a week, he would at times coach me on particular searches or even come online with me to search and show me new approaches. That one year, in retrospect evolved me more than 5 years of self study. My income based on what I could do experienced a nice surge during that timeframe…so something was working …at least for me.
During my time at Wachovia I became involved with Broadlook Technologies and had some high caliber 1-1 training sessions with Kary Valley. Kary is simply scary smart and his impact on how I viewed what is possible in terms of data mining blew apart my mindset at the time. Delved very deeply into their Eclipse product, ultimately being named their first non-employee Black Belt. What still blows my mind is there is still a healthy amount of untapped capability that I have not harnessed with that product.
I returned full circle near the end of 2008 and start of 2009 returning to AIRS to renew my CIR and earn the ACIR (Advanced Certified Internet Recruiter) and recently the CSSR (Certified Social Sourcing Recruiter ) certifications. Really enjoyed the experience and was pleased to see AIRS still bringing fresh content to the training space. Every conference I attend I have made a point to sit in on Glenn/Shally’s presentations to stay on top of new syntax and their approach to sourcing. Preparing to further study under Shally as his time allows to “take it up another notch”. That will happen this week in his home and I have asked him to put together a regime for me that is somewhere in intensity between US Army Ranger Training and an unsedated medical procedure.
I want it to expose every chink I may have, put it out in the open and then we will jointly develop a written development plan to take me from point A to point B. I have also already heavily invested in some of Broadlook new training which is quite good. Improvement doesn’t just occur, you have to mentally be willing to pay the price just like an Olympic athlete who endures the workouts to condition themselves to perform at their peak.
There is a great deal of informal sharing and training that goes on, specific people I seek on particular topics. It is just a matter of saying “I’d like to learn more about this” and it helps to bring something to the table to share with them. I love our community.
Six Degrees: What recruitment software tools do you use in your day to day recruitment activities & do they translate effectively within all of the different countries where you recruit?
Russ: It really depends on the assignment. I no longer have a stock response of “I use XXX” because my toolkit has developed to the point of being somewhat unique and to tools to some degree can impact the direction the search takes based on the capabilities you have available to you. Of course, it comes back to skill and being comfortable with a certain procedure or tool or syntax which comes through practice. Lately, I find myself rethinking how to generate more speed in terms of my ability to find the same people I would have located anyway faster. The goal being to develop a more optimized toolkit and how I use it to allow me to deliver more talent in the same amount of time. Enjoying the process and several people have shared tips that have already shown me this is going to be a very good initiative. Some tools recently have been deleted, while in the last week I have added two new ones. Always evaluating and optimizing what works best in my assignments and if something doesn’t cut the mustard…it doesn’t last long.
Six Degrees: What tools (technology or old school file folder, for example) did you first encounter early in your recruitment career?
Russ: Three tools when I first started (2000) that stood out as having either a “wow factor” or extreme utility were ACT!, AIRS Search Station (beta-tested) and EGrabber address grabber.
• ACT! – has a lot of interesting features and I thought was pretty versatile
• AIRS Search Station – my first foray into beta-testing and seeing a glimmer of how powerful search technology could be
• EGrabber address – it worked, easy to use, worked with ACT didn’t have to worry about it doing anything except pretty much working.
Six Degrees: How did your expectations of being a recruiter compare to the actual, first time you got on the phone or in the cubicle? In your opinion, how do people's assumptions about our vocation differ from reality?
Russ: I had no idea what was involved when I started. I remember buying Paul Fordyce’s manual on recruiting and studying others to try to develop my own authentic style. Sourcing – was so new that few in our industry understood it, much less knew enough to set their expectations. I realized later, as I spent more time in the trenches that part of my role was to educate, facilitate, share and catalyze understanding. During that process I experienced some of my greatest moments of illumination.
Six Degrees: Worst mistake, biggest goof, lousiest practice you thought would fly but didn’t, and how that moment culminated into a true learning experience?
Russ: Early in my career I would start sourcing, with an ‘eager to please’ attitude, without fully arming myself with all the information needed to really surgically source. This resulted in some near miss type candidates which were in the ballpark but not “Yes!” caliber. Intake Mistake …don’t make it and I will blog on this very soon.
What I learned was ‘slow is really fast.’ Slow in terms of taking the time to really indentify exactly what we are seeking, mapping out where this talent typically would congregate and thinking through your toolkit to make a decision on which tool/technique/source etc is going to have the highest probability of revealing that talent pool on my screen so that the core pipeline can be built. The tool piece is a bit sophisticated because there are more variables to factor in, with practice you start dialing some techniques in and it is very pleasant when you see your results onscreen change from goobley-goop into pure usable talent….that’s an interesting moment every time.
Six Degrees: How do you personally expect to facilitate change within our industry, and/or at your place of work? If you started that process, outline the problem, your solutions, and the vision.
Russ: I am being very authentic (which can be scary) and let my actions do the talking. If people are paying attention, they will get the message.
Certainly, I’m very passionate about helping others learn more about sourcing because it is part of the giving back process. There is no doubt in my mind that I have some very bright folks who graciously mentor me and I want to extend their influence by passing that on to others. It never fails to help me evolve so that philosophy has resulted in one win-win after another.
The forthcoming radio show, Sourcing Samurai, will be part of that effort where I’ll talk to very seasoned, knowledgeable experts who have spent the time in the trenches to really know what works about the people, experiences, training, technologies etc. that forged their sourcing mindset; changing how they approached their craft forever. Hopefully this very candid sharing will stimulate some thought in the audience over how they might learn from what the guests share with me.
Research is as much about knowing how to find the answer as it is knowing it. I know the guests who are slated to share are people that anyone who wants to learn more would do themselves a service by making a decision to spend that 15 minutes or so with us. Understand I touched upon the Sourcing Samurai previously, but it bears repeating, something free you will not want to miss.
Six Degrees: “Best practice” you are most proud of developing (now or in the past) in your recruiting career?
Russ: I developed a sourcing model and was able to navigate actually gaining senior leadership approval without any revision to the original presentation. Again my network served as a private sounding board which contributed invaluable insight. My experience at Wachovia/Wells Fargo truly ingrained the concept and value of open collaboration. It is a form of intellectual diversity which results in an end product which is far superior to simply locking yourself in your office and doing the work in a vacuum.
Six Degrees: What are some of the frustrating aspects/obstacles to your day to day as a staffing professional and in general?
Russ: Striving for brevity for the sake of time while balancing that with ensuring the communication is effective and professional.
Six Degrees: What are the most common themes of strategic and/or tactical mishaps involving past or present HR/Staffing org?
Russ: My opinion, which I don’t confuse as fact
Project Management - We need better skills there in general. We need to ask the right questions, i.e., “What’s the real scope ?” “What outside of the scope?”
“Letting Perfect be the Enemy of Good” – at a certain point, get going, watch what happens and adjust accordingly. Jason Goldberg has a phrase “Ship it”, which I have adopted. “Ship it”, Just do it and adjust vs. waiting until everything is perfect and the window of opportunity it closed.
Six Degrees: Considering all of the frustrations you have experienced in your career as a recruiter, -- what inspires you as you continue in your career?
Russ: I love what I do. Learning new things, analyzing, meeting the people, the relationships that have developed and are developing, technology - and I get paid to do things I really enjoy. I love it so much I just want to keep on going, evolving, growing, and seeing where the journey leads. We are in an era of exponentially accelerating possibility and that drives me.
Six Degrees: What one thing do you find most ideal given the opportunity to develop/ implementing/ invent professionally that has yet to be done.
Russ: I think for me personally I want to immerse myself in desktop technology and expand upon ways to increase the speed with which I source based on layouts, add-ons, toolbars and how I use them. It’s low cost, experience has shown me there is a lot of utility if you are disciplined in how you experiment and it sharpens your sourcing in general.
Six Degrees: Anything you want to plug?
Russ: My online Radio Show – "The Sourcing Samurai" - stay tuned lining up our first recording session now.
My Arbita BlogBlog – http://aces.arbita.net/blog/Russ
My Arbita Homepage
Six Degrees: How Are You Going To Change The Recruitment Industry?
Russ: I would like to help propel some of the thinking surrounding our industry. I would like to seed some healthy discussion, unearth some utilitarian tools, share with others and maybe inspire someone to really go for it. I have several experiences with “reverse mentoring” where I had a mentor who helped me with a topic and during that process I helped them gain a deeper understanding of what sourcing is all about. My new career provides opportunity for pursuing that passion and I truly enjoy the interaction with the super talented bright minds I tend to gravitate towards.
Help bring Sourcing/Research a little more out of the shadows. Keep and expand my seat at the table as a trusted adviser to the Senior Talent Acquisition Leaders who engage me to the point they want to bring me back. Help inspire someone with the aptitude to pursue this career path and show where it can lead.
st the tip of the Chat and I'm sure we'll see this continue in December! Following is an overview of Jerry's topic and the Chat transcript.
You can also find Jerry online HERE!
3:03pm Susan Burns It all yours Jerry!
3:03pm Maren Hogan Let's hear it for the boy
3:03pm Jerry Albright thanks!
3:03pm Susan Burns (hi Pam! hi Josh - long time Josh!)
3:03pm Julia Stone clap, clap, whistle
3:03pm Jerry Albright That makes me laugh Maren!
3:03pm Joshua Letourneau hi, susan :)
3:03pm Maren Hogan :)
3:04pm Susan Burns Hey roomie!
3:04pm Jerry Albright I see the crowd is getting just a bit bigger each time with TTC.
3:04pm Jerry Albright Today's theme is Agency Recruiting
3:04pm Kondalarao :-)
3:04pm Jerry Albright I'm not an expert in social media, ATS, branding or the other stuff.
3:05pm Jerry Albright and today I'm just going to throw out some of the principals I personally stick with.
3:05pm Jerry Albright i wish I could type faster!
3:05pm Jerry Albright let me dig one up here for you...
3:06pm Jerry Albright 11. If your client is within a days drive – you MUST meet them personally.
3:06pm Jerry Albright These are just random by the way - you can tell that's number 11.
3:06pm Jerry Albright Do you visit your clients?
3:06pm Susan Burns I like that Jerry! We understimate the f2f time
3:06pm Maren Hogan Do you always have to bring food? Seems like vendoras always bring food
3:07pm Julia Stone absofreakinlulely
3:07pm Jerry Albright I never do.
3:07pm Jerry Albright should I?
3:07pm Maren Hogan around christmas it starts to irritate me
3:07pm Joshua Letourneau i bring rubber frogs - seriously :) well, jelly ones
3:07pm A Lonnie McRorey what are vendoras?
3:07pm Susan Burns Food is good - calculators are bad!
3:07pm Maren Hogan I don't know. Tell me, if I am a brands new recruiter (:) what is the ONE process I should have in place
3:07pm Maren Hogan vendoras=vendors
3:07pm Jerry Albright OK. So I personally believe you should meet absolutely EVERY client that gives you a job order.
3:07pm Joshua Letourneau they're good for stress relief and adults are kinesthetic (give 'em somethin to play with and their brain fires more) :)
3:08pm Jerry Albright I've lost the crowd already Susan............
3:08pm Julia Stone I'm with you
3:08pm Maren Hogan before or after they've given you the order Jerry?
3:08pm Sue so am I
3:08pm Susan Burns I think u got em rolling on ideas Jerry!
3:08pm A Lonnie McRorey Close to the Spanish of Vendedoras
3:08pm Carol Thornton go ahead!
3:08pm Julia Stone ribbit, stay focused Lonnie
3:08pm Jerry Albright I go after I take the order. It's part of my process.
3:08pm Jerry Albright If they won't make time to see me....
3:09pm Sue suppose they don't want to meet w/u
3:09pm Jerry Albright then I'm doubting they will make time to work with me
3:09pm Carol Thornton What if your clients are all over the country and F2F is not an option?
3:09pm Jerry Albright it really is that simple Sue. Really.
3:09pm Julia Stone I agree with Jerry. I have another one too, can I add?
3:09pm Jerry Albright Good point Carol.
3:09pm Susan Burns Jerry - how do u frame the purpose of the meeting
3:10pm Jerry Albright I just let them know that since I'll be representing them I would like to get to know them better.
3:10pm Joshua Letourneau can i interject a fringe idea? a small one . ..
3:10pm Susan Burns So prupose is tied to outome - as we get to know each other I can represent your brand better?
3:10pm pam claughton It's to their benefit to meet with you as you'll get a better sense of their environment.
3:10pm Susan Burns Josh - yes Julia - yes!!
3:10pm Julia Stone I have a 3 page intake form that I use during my initial meeting, I pick & choose.
3:11pm Jerry Albright Oh I forgot.
3:11pm Sue that is a good idea intake form
3:11pm Susan Burns pick and choose questions to ask or clients to take on
3:11pm Joshua Letourneau can you bring a flip cam and interview some 'co-workers' to help give the candidate a better feel of the culture/environment?
3:11pm Jerry Albright The term is "intake" now.....sorry PC Cops - I'll never say "job order" again....my bad
3:11pm pam claughton Josh, that's a fun idea!
3:11pm Susan Burns great idea Josh - don't forget the release form ;-)
3:11pm Julia Stone I bring an intake form to ask questions about teh company, culture, management style, etc
3:11pm Julia Stone One time, I asked what is your management style, he said...What's the right answer?
3:11pm Joshua Letourneau i'd probably wind up in jail :)
3:12pm Jerry Albright My goal in meeting my client is to get to know HIM or HER better.
3:12pm Susan Burns Jerry - how often do clients decline the meeting and what are the reasons they give
3:12pm Jerry Albright They rarely do. I'll admit - some meetings are short.
3:13pm Dean Lockett and to get face time with the watchdog of the office - get them to recognize you
3:13pm Jerry Albright But any client serious about hiring would certainly want to meet don't you think?
3:13pm Cathy McCullough do you "benchmark" resumes? I find that helps because it turns the conversation from a wish list to a reality check
3:13pm Maren Hogan Do you think that it shows something about your commitment to go there even for a ten minute meeting?
3:13pm Jerry Albright as I've mentioned before - I show up early and hang out in the cozy lobby seeing whose coming and going.
3:13pm Joshua Letourneau 'cuz they're working with 10 other firms on a vendor list or thorugh an online VMS . . . so they just want tons of resumes
3:13pm Susan Burns I agree - I always appreciate it from vendors - esp if they are focused and have a purpose & intention that will benefit the biz
3:13pm Jerry Albright Maren - yes.
3:13pm Dean Lockett Suggest team meetings if possible - I've gotten that
on a first meet before
3:14pm Jerry Albright Your a heavy hitter Dean.
3:14pm Jerry Albright This is a fact:
3:14pm pam claughton I think they take you more seriously too if they invest a little time to meet with you. Shows you that they want to get the job filled.
3:14pm Susan Burns Quick interruption - can someone with IE please copy the chat stream at the end so I can paste the Chat in the Forum - Thanks!
3:14pm Julia Stone if I don't understand the culture & get to see the place, how can I possibly place the right person. I am not a magician. At least not professionally
3:14pm Jerry Albright If a client does not want to meet you - then they do not value you or your time.
3:15pm Joshua Letourneau jer, that's when you pull a D-Trump on 'em
3:15pm Gregg Alper how would you gauge who is serious and who isn't with clients not in your area that you can't meet?
3:15pm Susan Burns Ideally this investemtn in the beginning should return more "right-fit" candidates so its a good investment of time
3:15pm A Lonnie McRorey Jerry do you focus on the painful spots from the get go?
3:15pm pam claughton If they move into new space, good idea to go back in for a visit too.
3:15pm Jerry Albright Let's go with Gregg's Q here.
3:15pm Carol Thornton I can't meet with my clients so I talk to them about where they have gotten good people from in the past. This gives me a culture idea
3:15pm Julia Stone Julia's rule...I don't like to work with anyone who won't give me their cell phone number.
3:15pm Jerry Albright OK. Gregg you work long distance clients?
3:15pm pam claughton Julia, that's interesting, how did that come about?
3:15pm Dean Lockett In your meeting with HM, let them know you are looking for a sponsor to intro you to other HM's AFTER you've taken care of the person ur meeting with of course
3:16pm Susan Burns Gregg - maybe a Skype meeting if an alternative to close the distance or at least a conf call
3:16pm Gregg Alper yes. i am on east coast, some clients on the west.
3:16pm Jerry Albright If that's the case you can still gauge whether they value your time or not.
3:16pm Gregg Alper thats a good idea
3:16pm Jerry Albright Gregg - ask them to call you back.
3:16pmpam claughton You can often tell how serious they are too by how they respond to your initial submissions
3:16pm Julia Stone Well, they want us to spend 2-3 weeks worth of time with the possiblity of no pay at the end. I want to see if they are going to put any skin in the game
3:16pm Joshua Letourneau if you super-niche yourself, you can still work a large geography range . . . but i always try (at some point) to physically meet
3:17pm Dean Lockett www.gotomeeting.com might be an option
3:17pm Gregg Alper like what kind of niche Joshua?
3:17pm Jerry Albright But just how far away would a client have to be to think you wouldn't want to meet them?
3:17pm Joshua Letourneau for me, i spend most search time in a small engineering area where the candidate pool is finite
3:17pm Carol Thornton I'm in ATL and my clients are in Chicago, Dallas, Philly, etc
3:17pm pam claughton A friend of mine works the Boston area but lives in Upstate NY and she visits all her Boston clients, a 4 hour drive at least.
3:18pm Carol Thornton too far to drive
3:18pm Jerry Albright It would show them alot if you flew in
3:18pm Joshua Letourneau gregg, perhaps opto-electronics engineering or something along those lines (and then you can branch out to operational roles around that niche as well)
3:18pm Susan Burns Carol - is it worth the investment to do a quarterly touch base with past, current and prospective clients. Is there enough in each market?
3:18pm Shannon Myers Conferences are a good place to at least meet your clients.
3:18pm Jerry Albright seriously. what's $500 when you think about a 20K fee?
3:19pm Jerry Albright I wouldn't do it every time Carol.
3:19pm Julia Stone I met a client in ATL at a conference in sept, it was extremely helpful in moving us to the next level
3:19pm Carol Thornton true, but usually one client in each location
3:19pm Jerry Albright but I'd certainly meet every client who hired from me - regardless of location.
3:19pm Joshua Letourneau jer, a small co-tainer up front can help offset that as well (a $1k engagement fee or something along those lines)
3:19pm Carol Thornton I staff for managers and execs within the staffing industry so my clients are spread out
3:20pm Jerry Albright that might work. it's not my style though.
3:20pm Susan Burns Is an online meeting as valuable - can you close the virtual distance and get the same results?
3:20pm Jerry Albright I have no idea.
3:20pm Susan Burns Lets keep in mind being green too - maybe there's a way to leverage the idea of virutal?
3:20pm Julia Stone no, i don't hink so susan, it might be better than a call, but ti might just be a pain to them if they don't have a set up to do it
3:20pm Jerry Albright anything that moves your relationship forward is a good idea.
3:20pm Maren Hogan I think it's like being a good writer or having a skill, some people can do the virtual thing and others hate it
3:20pm Joshua Letourneau i've tried that, susan - but it's not the same as doing body shots with HR :)
3:20pm Maren Hogan The actual skill lies in being able to make others feel comfortable
3:21pm Gregg Alper thats not bad. i have mostly been IT and looking at other fields to focus more on one niche area
3:21pm Jerry Albright Ready for the next Random Principal?
3:21pm Carol Thornton yes
3:21pm Jerry Albright OK. Just a sec.
3:21pm Susan Burns Give us #10 Jerry!!
3:22pm Jerry Albright 14. Remove Caller ID from your phone.
3:22pm pam claughton Really, why?
3:22pm Julia Stone incoming or outgoing jer?
3:22pm pam claughton I love my caller ID :)
3:22pm Jerry Albright I want to receive each call with the same enthusiasm
3:22pm Jerry Albright incoming Julia.
3:23pm Maren Hogan #15 don't give your cousin your work phone number
3:23pm Julia Stone if that is the goal, might I also suggest standing up when you answer calls or make them?
3:23pm Jerry Albright Sure.
3:23pm Julia Stone I suggest you stand up when making calls
3:23pm Jerry Albright That's funny.
3:23pm pam claughton I think I'm a techie geek...I like knowing whose calling in.
3:24pm Cathy McCullough Also, you should consider shutting down IM and email when making recruiting calls.
3:24pm Jerry Albright so OK then - stick with your caller ID.
3:24pm Shannon Myers I would have trouble with that as well
3:24pm Julia Stone agreed cathy, I turn of my monitor
3:24pm pam claughton that's a good suggestion....email can be distracting
3:24pm Jerry Albright I take every call if I am in. No matter what.
3:25pm Jerry Albright 12. Do not assume anything – like an unemployed person can start right away or “any reasonable offer” will be accepted. Have the discussion with every person – every time.
3:25pm pam claughton twhirl is the most distracting thing on my desktop...have to shut it down often
3:25pm Susan Burns Jerry - is there something thats driving #12 - what has been your experience and is it shifting with the economy and hosing market??
3:26pm Julia Stone wow, insightful jerry. I have learned that there is no such thing as overcommunicating, but I just learned it this year
3:26pm Susan Burns oops- housing! althouh we are all getting hosed!!
3:26pm pam claughton #12 is the most critical thing. you need to know everything and anything can change from day to day.
3:26pm Jerry Albright Assumptions kills us every time.
3:26pm Joshua Letourneau "has anything changed?" is the question that has to be asked each and every conversation . .. to the point they're telling you "No" before you even ask
3:26pm Susan Burns Pam - how often do you follow-up to make sure the candidate is still on track with agreements?
3:26pm Jerry Albright no Josh. not "has" anything changed.
3:27pm pam claughton every time I talk to them, even it's daily.
3:27pm Jerry Albright it is "WHAT HAS CHANGED" and then be quiet.......
3:27pm Joshua Letourneau touche - i like that
3:27pm Jerry Albright huuuuuuuge difference there.
3:27pm pam claughton especially if they're a good candidate, an offer in hand can change their notion of what they now want.
3:27pm Dean Lockett who,what,where,when,how, why - all open end starters
3:27pm A Lonnie McRorey Powerful
3:27pm Jerry Albright but "has" anything changed is Far better than.....
3:27pm Jerry Albright "Nothing's changed, right?....."
3:28pm Joshua Letourneau the point is, "ask" and be cognizant that things do, in fact, change - i don't know if there are perfect questions for every candidate . .. but i agree with "what's changed?"
3:28pm Jerry Albright pretty heavy indeed.
3:28pm pam claughton Or they may have gotten a raise, and that can impact what you need to close them on.
3:29pm Dean Lockett Or their company just filed Chap 11 - happened to meX-(
3:29pm Jerry Albright 28. Before you extend an offer to your candidate – take 1 hour and do something else.
3:29pm pam claughton More common, in this market, since the last time you spoke even if its just a few days, they may now be unemployed. Several of my candidates were laid off this week!
3:29pm Jerry Albright 28. Before you extend an offer to your candidate – take 1 hour and do something else.
3:29pm Susan Burns i would imagine as well that with the current economic climate any new news could make them more skittish about making a move
3:30pm pam claughton Yes, Susan that is very true too.
3:30pm Joshua Letourneau susan, Bingo - that's my situation
3:30pm Joshua Letourneau especially clients that insist on relo for all roles
3:30pm Susan Burns noone wants to be the new kid on the block unless they are currently unemployed
3:30pm pam claughton I had someone cancel an in-house interview today because he didn't want to jeopardize his current contract situation.
3:30pm Shannon Myers Jer - 1 hour to do?
3:31pm pam claughton very strange market indeed.
3:31pm Susan Burns THanks Shanon - keep us focused!
3:31pm Jerry Albright Shannon - reflect
3:31pm Jerry Albright I remember my first offer. I was SO excited. I was going to just hop on the phone with the candidate!
3:31pm Gregg Alper i've had that. recently had a guy not want to pursue a spot that was a 2 year project because of his concerns and would rather finish out the current project that ends next month and then figure things out. to me that is crazy
3:31pm Maren Hogan So ";Do you have any spare change?" would be what. . .wrong?
3:31pm Jerry Albright my mentor said - HEY! Wait a minute!
3:32pm Dean Lockett review notes, bounce it off someone else, might catch something there u missed?
3:32pm Jerry Albright could be anything.
3:32pm pam claughton Gregg, I agree, my guy had a similar mindset. Nutty.
3:32pm Jerry Albright how about just enjoying what you have in your hand!
3:32pm Susan Burns Jerry - do you tend to alter anything in your offer approach given the current biz climate?
3:32pm Jerry Albright no.
3:32pm Jerry Albright not really.
3:32pm Dean Lockett I do that after offer signed and person shows up to the dance ;-)
3:32pm pam claughton Jerry, would you advise calling to pre-close at that point?
3:33pm Jerry Albright What do you mean Pam?
3:33pm pam claughton Well you said wait an hour...am assuming you've already pre-closed, but maybe not everyone here does that as a matter fo course before extending?
3:34pm Eric Gilson Shouldn't your candidate be pre-closed well in advance to this
3:34pm Dean Lockett Whole nuther chat could be applied to "pre-close"
3:34pm pam claughton Yes, Eric they should be, but this is where many new recruiters skip the crucial step i ntheir excitement.
3:34pm Jerry Albright They should have been closed on "let's go get an offer you'll accept" prior
3:34pm Rayanne you should always pre-close..., ie; "what would it take to land you?"
3:35pm Rayanne "hav you thought about a counter-offer?"
3:35pm Jerry Albright Usually your candidate and you have been working on "the things that need to be there" in advance.
3:35pm Dean Lockett what does your spose think about this oppty?
3:35pm Eric Gilson We don't present offers unless we are sure it is going to be accepted
3:35pm Joshua Letourneau i like to say, "so you're looking for 250 . . . but will take 30k, right?" :P don't try that at home
3:35pm Dean Lockett spouse ...sorry
3:35pm Jerry Albright correct Eric.
3:35pm Jim - medXcentral @eric... isn't that the point of Pre or test closing?
3:35pm Jim - medXcentral to be sure...
3:35pm Susan Burns Dean - very important - and that should be checked early and often. Have seen it kill mamy a deal late in the process
3:35pm pam claughton Yes, I don't like surprises...I pre-close more than once generally because things are fluid and often changing.
3:35pm Eric Gilson yes
3:35pm Rayanne "would you say no to...?"
3:36pm Jerry Albright What I hate is when the HR dept offers them the job directly and says "let us know within 5 days!"
3:36pm Julia Stone one of Julia's favorites: Can I accept the offer on your behalf ?
3:36pm Rayanne hate that too
3:36pm pam claughton Yes, I hate that.
3:36pm Eric Gilson We don't let our clients present the offer
3:36pm Eric Gilson That is what we do
3:36pm Shannon Myers I ask that one too Julia
3:36pm Rayanne I ate an HR dept that changes the comp offered...
3:36pm Dean Lockett that's part of pre-close with HR, but still happens
3:36pm Rayanne *hate
3:36pm pam claughton I always have them call the client to accept directly with them...seems more binding and they both love it.
3:36pm Joshua Letourneau yeah, HR sometimes wants to "stick to their process" (the same one that leads to 20% fallouts for them)
3:37pm Jerry Albright Eric - there's always a rogue HR member out there - be careful!
3:37pm Susan Burns So its ok for acceptance to go directly to the client but not for client to extend the offer - logic??
3:37pm Eric Gilson exactly Josh
3:37pm Rayanne true
3:37pm Jerry Albright Susan
3:37pm Joshua Letourneau i'm just playing :) but I run into that like everyone else sometimes
3:37pm Susan Burns Hey - careful about that HR thing ;-)
3:37pm Jerry Albright offer extension is sales.
3:37pm Shannon Myers One firm I worked with did offer with candidate then conferenced in HR to do official acceptance
3:37pm Jerry Albright HR is not typically a "closer"
3:37pm pam claughton Susan it's a control thing. They accept with me, and then with the clinet. If the client extends, too many things can go wrong as they don't close as well as we do.
3:37pm Susan Burns But are u dealing with HR generalist or with Recruiters?
3:37pm Jerry Albright they leave it quite open actually.....:(
3:38pm pam claughton it varies
3:38pm Eric Gilson Success is more likely when the driver of the process has a vested interest in the deal
3:38pm Susan Burns oh this is painful to hear! I gues I've been lucky to have very good recruiters working with me!
3:38pm Maren Hogan whoa go new guy!
3:39pm Joshua Letourneau a great trainer once told me that HR relies on us to use our own process - it's the only way we should take on the search with any degree of comfort (i.e. anything less is not an A+ assignment)
3:39pm pam claughton Susan, it's also what the client is paying us to do.
3:39pm Rayanne You can head off mos tof these problems by keeping open communication
3:39pm Rayanne maybe even have the negotiation and offer process mentioned in your contract or proposal
3:39pm Susan Burns Pam - if its in the SLA i agree
3:39pm Rayanne true, Josh
3:40pm Jerry Albright OK. So where are we?
3:40pm Dean Lockett what's lucky #13 Jer?
3:40pm Jerry Albright I skip that number
3:40pm Susan Burns Just to provide an laternate view - I have worked with TPR with great success but it was the internal recruiter that extended the offer - it forms an important bond at the beginning
3:40pm Rayanne good
3:40pm Dean Lockett face ur fears ;-)
3:41pm Jerry Albright that's one of my random principals Dean.
3:41pm Jerry Albright but we don't have time for it today.
3:41pm Joshua Letourneau agreed, susan - this does work with good communication. i couldn't agree more (to pam's point of pre-closing)
3:41pm Dean Lockett that is #13 isn't it?
3:41pm Jerry Albright let's do this one.........
3:41pm Susan Burns ANd Josh - agree that if it not a skilled corp recruiter then the TPR should extend
3:42pm Jerry Albright 25. Our job is not “social work”. If you’re in this profession to primarily “help people” you’re in the wrong field. Sorry :(
3:42pm Joshua Letourneau susan, we're control freaks :P
3:42pm Susan Burns and so are we '-)
3:42pm Rayanne no social work for me
3:42pm pam claughton Susan, agree it can work as long as there's communication and we know what the offer will be and can still pre-close.
3:42pm Rayanne communication is the key Pam
3:42pm Susan Burns Jerry - more info please
3:42pm Rayanne '
3:43pm Dean Lockett Social doesn't pay the bills, like Social Security :-0
3:43pm Jerry Albright You need to keep your "emotions" off your desk.
3:43pm Eric Gilson absolutely
3:43pm Rayanne Passion is part of this job, though
3:43pm Jerry Albright We're not here to "help people find better jobs".
3:43pm Joshua Letourneau i get satisfaction from "helping people" and changing lives . . . but to your point, i can't help 'everyone'
3:43pm Jerry Albright Oh Rayanne - I'm certainly passionate.
3:43pm Rayanne I know that
3:43pm pam claughton Jerry, true you can't get too vested in any one outcome
3:44pm Eric Gilson How do you know if you are changing their lives for the better?
3:44pm Rayanne but I have certainly become too attached to candidates in the past
3:44pm Joshua Letourneau Eric, great question :) it's all perception, right!!?
3:44pm Susan Burns aren't u also trying to "sell" a better opp? Isn't that part of the pitch? So, I ask - is it authentic and sincere?
3:44pm Jerry Albright There are better jobs.
3:45pm Susan Kang Nam Eric - great question
3:45pm Eric Gilson I look at it as offering them an opportunity
3:45pm Rayanne If it is the right candidate, it isn
3:45pm pam claughton Susan, I think it has to be.
3:45pm Susan Burns Eric - only they can determine that
3:45pm Julia Stone You are being paid to find the best possible person for the job, unless the candidates are paying you
3:45pm Rayanne isn't a "sell"
3:45pm Joshua Letourneau sometimes you absolutely know when you're improving their lives (like when they're close to shooting their current mgr)
3:45pm Eric Gilson Right, so I don't go about my workday thinking I am helping or hurting anyone
3:45pm Jerry Albright Hold on a minute here...
3:45pm Eric Gilson I am just an information broker
3:45pm Joshua Letourneau other times, it's a money play and they know they might make trade-offs for more $$$ (like more travel, longer hrs, etc.)
3:45pm Jerry Albright I'm not saying the people don't benefit.
3:46pm Jerry Albright Of course they do.
3:46pm Rayanne I think of it as bringing all the pieces together
3:46pm pam claughton There's a fine line between pushing someone and showing them, giving them information to see that this role offers what they want.
3:46pm Rayanne When you push, you lose objectivity
3:46pm Julia Stone I don' t think it is a fine line. I just work to know the info before my clients see them
3:46pm Rayanne and it becomes only about the close
3:46pm Jerry Albright I've never pushed in my work
3:46pm Jerry Albright I hate that.
3:46pmpam claughton When you push, either client or candidate, then you have a great chance of a falloff, and those are no fun.
3:46pm Jerry Albright Really I do.
3:47pm Dean Lockett Takeaways are better than pushing
3:47pm Julia Stone ok that made no sense. I mean I need to know their sincerity before submitting them about the company. It NEVER works to push anyone
3:47pm Jerry Albright I use to work with a guy who would never take no for an answer.
3:47pm Rayanne true
3:47pm pam claughton I don't push either, and that's why I have an almost unheard of falloff ratio. :)
3:47pm Rayanne sometimes no is the answer
3:47pm Jerry Albright Then Pam - you're not pushing enough......
3:47pm Jerry Albright :)
3:47pm Jerry Albright there's a balance there that's for sure.
3:47pm Joshua Letourneau churn n' burn - place n' bill :P
3:48pm Susan Burns From a corp perspective I apprecitae when a TPR can sell the opp but balance with the reality - I want a truly interested and invested candidate by the time they get to my desk
3:48pm Julia Stone I had a candidate the summer who the client wanted 10/10, his interest was a 4/10. I had to tell him to withdraw from the process & I Had to start over. broke my heart but boy did it strengthen my relationship wtih client & candidate
3:48pm Eric Gilson That leads to having to make Marketing Calls Josh
3:48pm Rayanne you did the right thing, Julia
3:48pm Susan Burns Julia- i would hire you with that story!
3:48pm Jerry Albright Gold Star Julia.
3:48pm Julia Stone yep, but it sucked
3:48pm Rayanne yep
3:48pm Julia Stone and i did get teh hire, just took another 2 weeks
3:49pm Jerry Albright (((((golf clap for Julia))))))
3:49pm Rayanne yea!!
3:49pm Rayanne clap clap
3:49pm Julia Stone stop, don't, stop, really! :)
3:49pm Rayanne lol
3:49pm Joshua Letourneau Julia, i've been scared my client would hire a candidate i didn't want them to!
3:49pm Rayanne I've had that too
3:49pm Susan Burns Yes, sometimes you must save us from ourselves ;-)
3:49pm Jerry Albright Ready for another quickie topic?
3:49pm Rayanne SOmetimes you send filler candidates because they wat a field of ten...
3:50pm Rayanne yes
3:50pm Julia Stone ready
3:50pm Joshua Letourneau they're great at first . .. and then something is said to worry you . . .
3:50pm Jerry Albright 23. I am not interested AT ALL in being the first recruiter a company agrees to use.
3:50pm Jerry Albright Now way. Never.
3:50pm Jerry Albright Thanks, but no.
3:50pm Eric Gilson Send them my way Jerry
3:50pm Rayanne I agree
3:50pm Joshua Letourneau i like being a human pinata :)
3:50pm Jerry Albright You'll be sorry Eric.
3:50pm Rayanne Theya re not readyy for the process
3:50pm Julia Stone I have never asked that question. and I am so surprised you have 23 of these
3:50pm A Lonnie McRorey Correct
3:51pm Dean Lockett Doesn't tell me they are used to paying fees
3:51pm Eric Gilson you are assuming that the HM has no expoerience dealing with TPR?
3:51pm Jerry Albright Each candidate you send has to be so far above the rest - you'll never get there.
3:51pm Jerry Albright End. Of. Story.
3:51pm Julia Stone ooh, I have one too, do you mind?
3:51pm Rayanne no the company has no exp and cannot possibly understand all that is involved - response time, fees
3:51pm Rayanne etc.
3:51pm Jerry Albright Get your own show Julia........
3:52pm Joshua Letourneau most companies reject a new process . . . even if the old is broken. it's human nature to resist change
3:52pm Eric Gilson It could be a great opportunity to educate your client
3:52pm Rayanne you said a mouthful there
3:52pm Jerry Albright Undoubtedly the "we want to talk about your fee" discussion will come up AFTER you finally find a good person for them also.....
3:52pm Rayanne I don't want to educate, I want to fill and bill
3:52pm Joshua Letourneau that's when you become the human pinata
3:53pm Rayanne undoubtedly, J
3:53pm Eric Gilson I would accept the search, but when we accept a search, we have guidelines that we accpect from the client
3:53pm Rayanne or there is the
3:53pm Jerry Albright I like your enthusiasm Eric.
3:53pm Shannon Myers what if it's a retained search - first time using tpr
3:53pm Eric Gilson You would start a search without nailing down your fee ahead of time???
3:53pm Julia Stone I have never had someon try to renegotiate a fee on me after a candidate is in the loop, ever
3:53pm Jerry Albright Shannon-Ok then.
3:53pm Rayanne "we spoke to that candidate already..." speech
3:53pm Jerry Albright Julia - you should get out more......
3:54pm Julia Stone maybe you are right
3:54pm Jerry Albright but I was really just talking about the "first time" fee
3:54pm Jerry Albright that was one of the reasons I'll pass.
3:54pm Julia Stone I will stay away from virgin fees, next?
3:54pm Jerry Albright His resume was on MOnster.
3:54pm Rayanne yep, they don't like paying for anything...
3:54pm Rayanne true
3:54pm Jerry Albright Julia - do you have a topic?
3:54pm Shannon Myers I've done semi-retained with my MD Practices who have never used a TPR, a small consulting fee to go through whole outline with them and then contingency for actual placement
3:54pm Julia Stone why, funny you should ask, jer?
3:55pm Rayanne hmmmm
3:55pm Julia Stone Rule #23.3 I always tell the manager something negative about the candidates when I submit them, but explain why I send them anyway.
3:55pm Joshua Letourneau companies now have researchers identifying candidates we submit - if there is a LI profile, they say they downloaded that candidate already
3:55pm Rayanne wow
3:55pm pam claughton Julia, why do you do that?
3:55pm Susan Burns Shannon - that is a great approach - its a nice way to educate and build a lasting relationship
3:55pm Rayanne that's happened to me so many times, Josh
3:55pm Julia Stone because they are used to us selling people, I try to show them we aer a partner
3:55pm Jerry Albright Julia - do you make something up?
3:55pm Susan Burns Julia- I like that - noone is perfect and it will help set the candidate up for long term success
3:56pm Julia Stone no, I don't
3:56pm Eric Gilson Why do you work with clients that work against you?
3:56pm pam claughton Josh, people are claiming profile on LinkedIn as a 'candidate' that's absurd.
3:56pm Rayanne that would be unethical
3:56pm Gregg Alper josh, thats the problem with working on spots where the candidates are all over the web
3:56pm Rayanne the whole, lying thing...
3:56pm A Lonnie McRorey Josh i can second that
3:56pm Joshua Letourneau pam, that's why blind resumes are a big-time no-no nowadays
3:56pm pam claughton I wouldn't work with a client that did that. Everyone is on LinkedIn these days, doesn't mean they are a candidate. That shows they don't respect the recruiter.
3:57pm Jerry Albright Or just cover it during the standard "step 6 - cover "shock" factors/negatives" which clearly follows step 5 - schedule the send-out....
3:57pm Susan Burns Josh - I would ask for a date. And, it applies only if the candidate was in their system prior to the search
3:57pm Jerry Albright Susan - any company doing that is playing games.
3:57pm Gregg Alper pam, that is the biggest problem with tech recruiting
3:57pm Eric Gilson I would find a new client
3:57pm A Lonnie McRorey Had Client say that they saw candidate on Facebook
3:57pm Joshua Letourneau many firms market blind resumes to get a shot to work an assignment . .. but then the blind resume is identified by the researcher :)
3:57pm Susan Burns Doing what Jerry?
3:57pm Rayanne If you maintain an active database..., they will always be in your system..
3:57pm pam claughton I have an issue with candidate being in their system too...if htey haven't called the candidate, how do they really consdier it theirs?
3:57pm Joshua Letourneau so blind-resume senders/marketers are killin us! :)
3:57pm Eric Gilson It's clients like that who think all TPR suck
3:57pm Rayanne Your client may keep a DB also
3:57pm Jerry Albright Finding your candidate names on the internet.
3:58pm Julia Stone they also will sign up lots of agencies (some clients) just to get you to agree not to steal from them, with no intentions of working with you
3:58pm Eric Gilson they think that because the good TPR fire them
3:58pm Susan Burns Agree Jerry. It must be in their proprietary system. Still questionable but I've seen it clearly written into agreements
3:58pm Susan Burns And, LI netowrk is not a proprietary system!
3:58pm Joshua Letourneau julia, yep - so the non-poaching clause should be limited to only if you make a placement (and then 6 mths, at that)
3:58pm Rayanne that floods he market and sometimes the "rockstar" has been approached a number of times already
3:59pm Susan Burns Jerry - this has been a fabulous CHAT. Is there anything you would like to add in the final few minutes?
3:59pm Dean Lockett Nice chat evry1, 42 participants..sweet ;-)
3:59pm Rayanne woo-hoo
3:59pm Eric Gilson sorry I was late
3:59pm Rayanne active today
3:59pm Julia Stone most of my agreements say they are only in place as long as the agreement is in effect
3:59pm Rayanne me too
3:59pm pam claughton Some of my clients will still credit me for a placement if I submit them a candidate that is in their system previously, because they didn't think of them...the old but/for standard.
3:59pm Julia Stone me too, pam
3:59pm Susan Burns I think this is a new record! Many new names too!
3:59pm Julia Stone great talk, Jerry. you inspire me
3:59pm Joshua Letourneau pam, KEEP that client!
3:59pm Rayanne Have a great day, all!!!
3:59pm Susan Burns Its a dicey game Julia. I have mixed feeling about it
3:59pm Jerry Albright Thanks for coming everyone!
4:00pm Julia Stone what game susan? too much flying by you lost me
4:00pm Eric Gilson Thanks Jerry! See you again
4:00pm Jerry Albright I've got 40 more random principals to share next time!
4:00pm pam claughton By all....back to the resumes! Great chat Jerry. :)
4:00pm Eric Gilson May I request a topic for a future chat?
4:00pm Jerry Albright If anyone would like to connect - just send me an email or call me directly.
4:00pm Jerry Albright 888-293-9249
4:00pm Susan Burns Julia - having to write in a deal that says if the candidate is already in the proprietary DB the serach is void of payment. Maybe a negotiated cost but agree - why didn;t the company find them?
4:00pm Jerry Albright I love to talk about recruiting!
4:01pm Maren Hogan Eric, contact Miss Susan Burns, she is the boss of the chat
4:01pm Eric Gilson thanks!
4:01pm Susan Burns Jerry - guessing that we could keep working down your list in next chats?
4:01pm Jerry Albright sure thing Susan.
4:01pm Susan Burns Eric - YES...please send your ideas
4:01pm Susan Burns Thanks Everyone! This has been a fabulous Chat. Thanks to Jerry for hosting such a terrific topic and generating great dialogue!
4:02pm Maren Hogan w00t Jerry! Way to bring it! Nice work. I got whiplash watching this mother move!…
the stress patterns where you are manipulating your victims." ~ John Kennedy
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"Sourcing In the Midnight Hours"
Now...scroll to the bottom and read up!
RecruiterGuy I'll post here when I get my beta back. I got a confirmation.
Denyse Diem ps - fonolo is not accepting new emails
Denyse Diem I think that name's gonna stick JK - I mean Lil' Ray!
Maureen Good night! Spread the word!
Adam Peterson thanks jason and maureen (and can't forget lil ray)
John Kennedy later, all ...
Adam Peterson g'nite all you east coasters!
John Kennedy Probably will be asleep then but will be looking forward to the transcript
Maureen See you next week - send me your ideas for topics you'd like to see discussed!
Maureen Good night Jason. Thank you all for attending this first ever MagicMethod Midnight Moves Phone Sourcing Chat - you've made RBC history!
Denyse Diem great for next week I guess! will be throwing a big b'day bash for hubbie so w't be able to make it next week.
John Kennedy used to work alot of 2 to 10's at the TV stations
Maureen I forgot to talk about sourcing in manufacturing - 2nd and 3rd shift workers are ever so helpful!
Jason Davis Maureen, I'll leave it like this till tomorrow am. I need to hit the sack
John Kennedy 3 to midnight, 5 to 1, something like that
Maureen 2nd being 6-3 ?
John Kennedy 3rd freaks me out a bit as by the time I wake up at or whatever the next day I can't tell "this morning" from "yesterday"
John Kennedy I do best 2nd ...
Maureen Maybe we can talk about that next time - how to best use your Body's Time Clock
John Kennedy I have been 1st for years now and I still can't get used to it
Denyse Diem insomniac JK?
Maureen So you're a Night Owl John?
John Kennedy Don't know if this would be it ... but definitely something to think about
Maureen Let's keep an eye out for subjects we can bring to chat on this issue - show and tell!
John Kennedy But I have been looking for something to get me back on 2nd or 3rd shift for a while
Adam Peterson "Dark Side Sourcing"
Maureen Dark Time Sourcing
Maureen I like that idea John and will think on it.
John Kennedy Where YOU would have vendors that employ ... well ... techniques best exercised in the dark
Maureen Jason, I find this chat kinda "sticky" to use. Though it could be MY clumsy fingers.
Denyse Diem Thanks again Maureen. Have a great Sunday everyone!
Maureen I wish I could type! I will fix the spelling errors in the transcript.
John Kennedy Interesting ... perhaps there could be ANOTHER bifurcation into "Daylight" and "Vampire" sourcing
RecruiterGuy As usual.. great chat, Maureen.
Maureen Night time "assaults", as you'd all them, accomplish this many times.
Maureen AND YOU NEED TO GET THROUGH.
Maureen That's not so true John. There are times when daytime work (Gatekeeperson, Admins, Exec Assts) just aren't "hacking" it.
Adam Peterson not from me - learned a lot. thank you Maureen!
Maureen Anyone have any questions?
Maureen We'll do this again next Saturday and keep it up for awhile to see how it goes...
John Kennedy So of the remaining % it sounds like so many more come from a full frontal gatekeeper run that anything additional you'd get at night may not even be worth the time
Maureen 80/20 applies when sourcing - spend 20% Internet sourcing/research and 80% on the phone
John Kennedy And, well, the 30% active would have been taken care of before they made it to sourcers ...
RecruiterGuy other than my work schedule going nuts sometimes... I'm good in the day
Maureen I'm curious if anyone attended tight who could not attend the weekly day-time chats?
John Kennedy or more likely 95/5 rule ...
John Kennedy although in recruiting it usually comes down to 90/10 rule ...
John Kennedy the old 80/20 rule ...
Maureen I agree w/ that but that's true in all things.
John Kennedy There are some things worth spending your time and some that aren't ...
John Kennedy BUT, the overall conclusion is that I've drawn is that in recruiting in general ...
John Kennedy Yes, it takes me a while to make a point ...
John Kennedy I remember this one fellow who kept saying that certain people had a "real '' attitude" ...
John Kennedy and one thing you see with that is a tendency to try to label EVERYTHING ...
John Kennedy Well, you see, I have alot of Asperger's running through my family ...
Maureen But what was your point - I felt you were going somewhere w/ it..
John Kennedy I think someone said it was Monday and I didn't think even the latest place is Monday yet
Maureen I love the Sharibian comment - John - my econ professors at UC would be so proud of me...
John Kennedy after heads-down, no LinkedIn profile, no user group involvement, no articles individual contributors ...
Maureen John what was your point before about Sunday being the latest time on earth?
John Kennedy Frt-door, full-frontal gatekeeper assault ...
John Kennedy The remaining 70% is ... well ... Sharibian ...
John Kennedy about30 % "active" candidates - major job boards, answering ads, conventional stuff ...
John Kennedy ALL recruiting combined ...
Denyse Diem Can we just call you Lil Ray, John?
Maureen Me too Adam. I always enjoy having John in these chats- he has a way of smackin' us all upside the head occasionally...
John Kennedy the picture that's getting painted ...
John Kennedy BUT ... based... what ... two years of ERE traffic ...
John Kennedy Oh, always ... but sometimes I'm not sure what case I'm building
Maureen "little ray" I can see that...
Denyse Diem LOL
Maureen "...manipulating my victims"? LOL Are you building a case John?
Denyse Diem There is a Sourcing Conference in Miami - apologies - thought you would get the op to meet Maureen and understand her brain dump instead of tape dump....
Maureen You'll learn yours if you take this up.
John Kennedy In my immediate circle of friends I'm known as "The little ray of sunshine"
Maureen THEN the Executive Asst to the C level - then the Admin Asst to the dept. In that order. For me. Everyone has their favored paths.
Adam Peterson vampires, stress patterns, victims <- love the positive spin on all this
Maureen YES John.
Maureen But, if I understand you correctly, you'd still say the front-line gatekeeper is still the most productive source of information?
John Kennedy Miami?
John Kennedy Yes, if you have movies with "live" soundtracks that would probably give me enough to pick up the stress patterns where you are manipulating your victims
Maureen probably so John.
Denyse Diem John will you be in Miami this September?
Maureen That's right - I ‘member D. First module - there's a couple lessons on phone banks and how to title ID the names you get those banks!
John Kennedy Wait a sec ... the latest it is anywhere on Earth right now is about 6pm Sunday I think
Maureen John, you keep talkin' about "tape dumps". I don't HAVE tape dumps. Though you would enjoy seeing the real time sourcing movie we made last year - it was filmed over the course of two days and is actual phone sourcing - I show it at training seminars and the reactions are always good - "Riveting" it's been called!
Denyse Diem Monday - - The week/end is shot already. As I mentioned, much afoot this weekend.
John Kennedy Yeppers
Denyse Diem tape dump = pod cast correct JK?
Maureen D - Magic goes through all this - have you started yet?
Maureen Yes D it's a very good place to start for a new sourcer - practicing phone banks and using the names you get them when you phone source the next day.
John Kennedy But, again, to do a proper analysis, I'd need a tape dump
John Kennedy Correct ... there's such a thing as going too far to create a sense of urgency ...
Denyse Diem good point John - hadn't thought of that
Maureen I think that's ridiculous to act like that.
Maureen Interesting point John. But I never (as far as I can tell) create panic. At least I think I don’t. I know sourcers who will call and imperiously say stuff like "You must give me the name of...or else your boss is going to hear about your (intransigence) and believe me there will be hell to pay!”
Denyse Diem would that be a suggestion for a new sourcer? doing the phone banks I mean...
John Kennedy But, if I understand you correctly, you'd still say the front-line gatekeeper is still the most productive source of information?
John Kennedy and it may be possible that South Asian culture maybe has something along a "maintain an even strain" element to it that it is difficult for them to project that sense of urgency/panic.
Maureen AND they can reveal the most amazing information!
Maureen Phone banks can really teach you alot though about sourcing - they force you to THINK about ways in.
John Kennedy she does get the "building on fire" sense of urgency through her voice that I understand is absolutely necessary for any part of the recruiting business ...
Maureen When I first started sourcing I would spend hours and hours doing phone banks - usually I'd get up early (about 2 ) and work til they opened doing phone banks - I don’t do much of that anymore.
John Kennedy and although I haven't had a chance to review an actual tape dump, based on the transcripts I would have to say ...
Maureen Anyhoo- anyone have any good night time stories about sourcing?
John Kennedy It sounds like, of what I have read so far, Maureen is about as "mild" as you get in the sourcing business ...
Maureen John, It's hard to find articles on ERE I find - it seems sometimes search works better than others - you have most luck searching w/in a specific group - try Sourcing Techniques group first John - then ASK - use "culture" as keyword.
John Kennedy Well, if I have to hazard a guess ...
Maureen Try search Google, John - culture difficulty indian sourcing – use those words
John Kennedy I'm almost certain it was ERE. Maybe six months ago.
John Kennedy I wish I would have saved it.
John Kennedy but it was very specific language he used about not being able to navigate the culture for such an endeavor...
Maureen Me too D.
Denyse Diem JK - I would love to understand what they perceive as our 'intricacies of culture'
John Kennedy Possibly ... perhaps based on many experience with outsourced customer service ...
Maureen I ask that because I still see most sourcing requests (even from outside US) for sourcing out of US companies that are located within IN US.
Maureen Maybe so. Do you think there is resistance to SE Asian culture here?
John Kennedy but they said they couldn't do phone sourcing because they couldn't navigate the intricacies of the culture
Maureen Yes D
Maureen Same phenomenon in other parts of the world. Mostly. I've sourced Australia, China Japan India and Europe - same thing most places - the place I find difficult to source is Mexico - if you can believe it - it's hard to get people who speak English there on the phone!
John Kennedy they were saying they had subscriptions to something like two billion resume databases and several other tools ...
Denyse Diem let me rephrase Maureen - would you said you gain access to information far more readily b/c people really want to help someone from the US?
John Kennedy But, yes, I need to do a better job of holding to these articles ... but there was something about an Indian company that did virtual recruiting ...
John Kennedy So I can see something like that might go on when you call ...
John Kennedy And I remember hear them saying, as if it was Christmas morning or some such, "It's Louise in America!"
Maureen Interesting John. I'm interested to hear that.
John Kennedy She called the UK frequently because some of their governing structure is there ...
Maureen It' s not hard to source abroad - remember D sourcing is simple but it's NOT easy!
John Kennedy Oh, yes ... I remember that phenomenon from my grandmother who used to be very active in the structure of the United Methodist Church ...
Maureen That's why I wonder about what those southeast asian (Indian) companies mean...though maybe the Southeast Asian accent is more of a handicap here in the states? I dunno...
Denyse Diem so would you say it's easier to source abroad then?
Maureen When I call Canada it works almost EVETY SINGLE TIME.
Maureen NO KIDDING
Maureen Good question John. PRETTY MUCH the same techniques work ONLY in some countries, when I say, “This is Maureen Sharib calling from the U.S." I can hear them drop what they're doing and most of them drop what they're doing to HELP me in whatever way they can.
Denyse Diem Amie - do you recruit/source abroad?
John Kennedy Do you run into similar issues when calling outside the country or do the same techniques that work here work there?
Maureen When I hit the morning guard I use the evening guard's name..."Oh, has Joe left already? Maybe YOU can help me..." It helps me establish a slight familiarity immediately.
John Kennedy I remember seeing a posting from an Indian recruiting company that they really couldn't do names sourcing because they couldn't navigate the culture properly ...
RecruiterGuy Not much... but did just fill a comp & benefits title in the UK.
John Kennedy Actually, that would bring up an interesting question ...
Denyse Diem what about the rest of you - what % of your work is abroad in other time zones?
Maureen Growing but still a small %.
Denyse Diem -- both abroad and I hope I take it
Maureen Denyse Usually persons, D. A small part of my biz is overseas.
Maureen Usually around 6 or 7.
Maureen Early mornings are very good times to call too - when the guard shift changes.
Denyse Diem SO when you call abroad, are you all calling phone banks as well as live folks?
Maureen But I don’t see it that way John. I see it as common sense conversational techniques.
John Kennedy You have a grandfathered flat mthly long distance over POTS plan? No wonder you're in the business you're in ...
Maureen Unusual - LOL Maybe so.
John Kennedy Or perhaps the more Constitutionally phrased "unusual" would be a better description
Maureen I use a pay e price per month plan. TTI I think it is - they don’t offer it anymore but I hang on for dear life through a grandfather clause.
Maureen (Loaded question)
Maureen John, do you think we use unconventional methods to extract information?
John Kennedy Well what LD carrier do you have that you can afford to war dial Hong Kong??
John Kennedy Yes ... generally speaking hacking is attempting to extract information from a database through ... unconventional methods ... much as your phone sourcing is extracting similar information from humans
Maureen Phone hacking. Hmmm...
Maureen I don’t use Skype- I always use land lines.
John Kennedy re Hong Kong - you have a pretty healthy Skype account there, eh, Maureen?
RecruiterGuy Isn't that how some of us fell into recruiting?
John Kennedy Why of course ... seems this "sourcing" has much in common with, by some measurements, a much older and more intense practice called "hacking"
Maureen That is certainly one of the things we can do in the middle of the night with the phone - can anyone think of others?
maren oh yeah! I got that too!
Maureen Someone said before class started that one thing we can do in the middle of the night is call other countries -Europe is hrs or so ahead of us Hong Kong 13 hrs or so .
RecruiterGuy Found it... link (RG - this link needs correction - I lost it in transcription)
Maureen Yes, war dialing - John you come up w/ some interesting catch phrases! May I use them?
John Kennedy Oooooooh ... you mean war dialing the directory
Maureen I mean the names in the thing - all the names listed under ABC, all the names under DEF and so ...
John Kennedy Now by phone trees you mean the menu structure?
Maureen RG - in beta - a service that will do phone trees? What is it?
John Kennedy Service in beta?
Maureen Yes, you can John. During the DAY as well!
RecruiterGuy /me digs in bookmarks.
RecruiterGuy Hmmm.... seems I was looking at a service that is in beta now that will perform that automatically for ya' now.
John Kennedy You can find out a very great deal from the back door guard at night.
Maureen The answer is yes John.
Maureen would be quite fascinated to learn if a person can extract a useful number of names by hammering the automated directories
RecruiterGuy the phone tree was the first step, mind you... I didn't find THEM in it.
John Kennedy Actually I hadn't actually thought of it, but I did that by accident before I even got in the recruiting business.
Maureen Do you want to learn John about phone banking?
RecruiterGuy I hired two brokers in a month span that were a result of working my way through a phone tree.
Maureen We have 24 online now - welcome!
Maureen Would you have DARED to do that? Do you see it as daring? Calling a security guard in the middle of the night?
John Kennedy But I would be quite fascinated to learn if a person can extract a useful number of names by hammering the automated directories
Maureen Did you all read "Middle of the Night Sourcing" – the post in the Forum section? Would you have thought to do that? When I was new I wouldn’t have!
John Kennedy Well, with almost 100% contract employees I've never really had a need ...
Maureen Do you know how to do it?
Maureen What are you curious about John?
John Kennedy The other thing is that if your "victim" is a piece of machinery now THAT I might be able to do
RecruiterGuy Ahhhh voicemail.... that brings back memories of learning call trees after hours and taking shots at spelling with the number pad for names and titles in voicemail. lol
Maureen That's also true RG - I LOVE to source around holidays - we have a good one coming up – Labor Day!.
Maureen That's true John. I like the imagery!
RecruiterGuy It's always challenging to get past the gatekeeper.... but they were always a little more vulnerable right before a weekend or when trying to scoot out for a holiday weekend. Catching them in just the right moment is always helpful.
John Kennedy Is that there are some true vampires of sourcing ... that can bring a voice mail directory to its knees at 2 am.
Denyse Diem Hello, I'm just entering the field of Sourcing and looking to learn all I can from you experienced Sourcers
Maureen Why so John?
John Kennedy But what I'm curious about that I've heard Maureen mention once or twice ...
Maureen “…when someone would give me anything just to get off the phone” - Explain that, RG - what did you do that made yourself so uhhh..."vexing"?
John Kennedy Yes ... - is a remarkably productive half hour ...
RecruiterGuy Not this late at night. But early in the morning worked well as did right toward the end of the day when someone would give me anything just to get the phone.
Amie E Yes, Phone, Internet, I’m not committed to one, I use whatever it takes.
Maureen RG - did you ever do it AT NIGHT?
Maureen Amie, do you phone source?
RecruiterGuy Hello - I used to perform heavy phone sourcing when I was a headhunter ~ years ago. I recruited for brokerage managers.
John Kennedy Morbid curiosity
Amie E how about jill of all trades??
Maureen What brings you all here tight?
Maureen Any Internet sourcers? Introduce yourselves!
Maureen Welcome to the MagicMethod Midnight Moves Sourcing Chat! Do we have any phone sourcers among us?
Midnight – Chat officially starts
Adam Peterson you guys on the east coast are hard core - this is a perfect dinner break here in CA
Denyse Diem JK - refresh your screen or go up to your url bar and enter twice - that should help
Maureen You’ll get used to it fast John - I hope Animal shows up tight - I don’t think he's going to though. He's prob’ly FAST asleep. I don’t dare wake him.
John Kennedy Okay ... this scrolling up is going to drive me nuts.
Maureen If any of you want to tweet that class is about to start - that would be cool! Make sure you give them the site link!
Maureen Have you all read the post I put up this morning in the Forum? It’s called “Middle of the Night Sourcing.”. Read it before class starts – it’s along the lines of what we’re going to be talking about in here tight in the midnight chat.
Denyse Diem wow - very useful!
Amie E It takes the persons email addy, shows their LI profile, if you are connected with them, and your email history with that person.. it also shows how many new contacts you connected with.. neat management tool
Maureen Jason, these logs become tutorials as well!
Amie E My newest widget is xobni, it is an outlook tool I liking alot
Denyse Diem now I hear it
Denyse Diem test
RecruiterGuy Okay... so I sent out some tweets about stracka.com... and I posted on some forums I hang out ... and now I'm getting notices like CRAZY about people joining. At least in the last days. Hmmmm....
RecruiterGuy Yup. lol
Adam Peterson RG - gotta mic?
Adam Peterson ...and then enable the sound feature
Adam Peterson try clicking the "+" button on the bottom right
Adam Peterson is it only working for me??
Jason Davis I don’t hear it either
Denyse Diem no sound here either - do we need to do anything in particular to hear it?
Amie E I not hearing it
Adam Peterson It works for me
Maureen That's cool but I don’t hear it - do I need to do something here?
Maureen This would do away w/ that old familiar war cry "You changed my words you so-and-so!"
Jason Davis Maureen, I enabled sound when a new post goes up i think. let me know if it is good
Maureen Jason, I really like the cache feature of this chat service. Look down below at the number of cached pages already!
Adam Peterson (well, that was my point of view at the time)
Adam Peterson I'm sorry, I realized i was giving away contact info to a recruiter
Maureen Adam, when did you realize what happened?
Adam Peterson the guy in the cube next to me heard my side of the conversation and thought something was up - so i started asking questions
Maureen So Adam, you know these things happen? How do you know that was a recruiter?
Maureen Click here for international time zones or to find out yours.
Adam Peterson the recruiter who called was a little sketchier - claimed they worked for my company, their network was down
Maureen What happened Adam?
Maureen We're going to be talking about the things you can do with a telephone in the middle of the night. Any of you have any ideas what some of those things might be?
Adam Peterson to be honest, it reminded me of my first job out of college (i-banking) where I was the one who got called at a slightly off hour
Maureen Amie, did you read "Middle of the Night Sourcing"?
Maureen What did you like about it Adam?
Adam Peterson great story posted in the forum btw
Adam Peterson Maureen, I'm planning listening in
Maureen Who is here for Midnight Moves?
Warm –Up – this conversation started a half hour or so before class started.…
#8 is a very good point, but job seekers need help in this arena. And I as one who practices the idea of trying to have just one interview process active at a time would appreciate help from recruiters and HR personnel in this regard. When you tell someone they will hear from you in a certain length of time, please contact them, don’t just relegate their emails to the trash bin and ignore them. If they are not in contention for the position let them know. They need to move on to the next application process so they can at least have a chance of finding employment where they would be a better fit. It is only common courtesy.
Jean-Louis Carrara • Like so many things, these are helpful communicating rules that will be broken by both sides depending on the people and situations, thank you for posting them. As for the candidates, we have to show energy and motivation, and still not get too attached to the result. With enough motivation (and time), we can always identify and reach the hiring manager.....
Will Thomson, • Hi Jimmy, thank you for your response. I 100% agree with your statement. Recruiters absolutely should let candidates know when they aren't selected for a role. Sometimes bad news is hard to hear, but it helps both parties move on.
Will Thomson, • Hi Jean-Louis, thank you for your response also! Looking for a job is a full-time job. It is hard not to get attached to the end result. We wouldn't be human if we didn't. I think everyone reading this (including myself) have been disappointed at some point in their lives by not being selected for a role. Hopefully though, this showed some insight inside of a recruiters head and it helps others land their dream job. I just completed my personal website and you can subscribe to weekly updates at www.wthomsonjr.com.
Cliff Collard • Much of that advice is a 2-way street. Respect and trust are things that both sides need to build. - If I tell a recruiter that I have not been in a particular role for 3 years and I don't do it anymore, stop emailing me job reqs in that area. - If I list my availablity over then next week, don't try to schedule something in a time I have specifically told you I am not available. You are asking me to disrespect the person who has scheduled a meeting with me in that time block. - If I block out time for you, show up! - If you send me a LinkedIn Connect request, I WILL ask how we know each other if I don't remember meeting you. You can avoid that by gently reminding me in the connect request. - The first time you contact me about an entry level job, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. The second time, I will assume you don't know how to read a resume.
Will Thomson, • Cliff, thank you very much for the response. You bring up some very valid points. Unfortunately, in the recruiting industry, there are some recruiters that aren't great. Check out this article. Very interesting and sad to say the least. http://bit.ly/13poQNU I like to think there are more good than bad, but I think a lot of recruiters get generalized. Recruiters should not try to get you into a role that you are not interested or a fit, but there are a lot of recruiters who simply try to fit a round peg in a square hole rather than finding the right opportunity. A candidate wants an opportunity that is interesting, exciting, and builds on your current skill set. I 100% agree with you regarding Linkedin requests. (BTW- I just sent you one because I like your comments). I receive countless requests without a reason and that really bothers me. When I ask "Why", you would be astonished by the number of people who don't have an answer or won't bother to return the e-mail. I am going to respectfully disagree with you about interview times. If you want to interview and if it is a fit, both parties have to be willing to give a little. Sometimes managers schedules are so tight that you may have to rearrange your schedule to interview. We will try to accommodate every way possible. When Amy and I wrote this article, we were really referring to people trying to get into a company, not a recruiter trying to convince someone of joining a company. I can only imagine the frustration of fielding tons of recruiting calls in the high tech industry because you have the word "Java" in your resume. Again, thank you. Will
You are right on about my perception of the Recruiting Industry. There are good and bad - experience helps distinguish between them quickly. My comments about interview times were more a general complaint about scheduling, including phone screens. The dialog commonly goes something like: Appointment seeker: We need to meet for an hour. What is your availablity next week? Me: Preferences are Tuesday or Thursday afternoon. Any Morning will work and I can probably reschedule my conflict on Friday. I am not available Monday or Wednesday afternoon. Appointment seeker: Then how about Wednesday at 9am? I am simply amazed that scenario plays out more often than choosing from the 80% of the time I can be available.
ollow and would appreciate any feedback to know if its something that we should continue to do. So, sit back, grab a coffee and enjoy the conversation!
Don't forget to join us and participate in the live Chat each week on Tuesday's and Thursday's at 3pm ET / 12pm PT.
Susan Burns Hi Everyone! Stick around for Talent Talk Cafe with Suzy Tonini - topic is compeititve intelligence. Starting in 5!
1:59pm Irina Shamaeva Hi
1:59pm Suzy Hi everyone
1:59pm Maureen Sharib Hi Suzy.
1:59pm Maren Hogan Hey Suzy!
1:59pm Suzy Susan will you be the emcee here please?
1:59pm Susan Burns Hi Irina - Hi Suzy - Hi Maureen - we'll begin in a few
2:00pm Slouch Hey Suzy, Thanks for spending an hour with us
2:00pm Dorothy Beach CI was whart caught my eye
2:00pm Irina Shamaeva I'm Suzy's follower on twitter - enjoy it, very informative
2:00pm Suzy Hi Maureen, Irina, Maren and Jason-nice being here virtually
2:00pm Susan Burns Hello Everyone! Its time for Talent Talk Cafe! Our special guest host today is Suzy Tonini from Deloitte
2:00pm Amybeth Hale Hi Suzy!
2:00pm Susan Burns A couple of things and then we'll get started
2:00pm Suzy Hey Amybeth!
2:01pm Suzy So I'm just going to say one big group hello
2:01pm Susan Burns You can click on Chat in the blue nav bar to pop the chat out and make it bigger and easier to follow
2:02pm Susan Burns Also, if you haven't already heard......drumroll.....Talent Talk Cafe is now on twice a week - Tues and Thurs with 6 fabulous new voices and another one to be announced soon!
2:02pm Susan Burns Our guest host today - Suzy Tonini - is a wealth of information! I learn something from her every week thanks to all her fab tweets!
2:02pm Suzy Cool beans! Can I ask a few questions to your group then?
2:03pm Susan Burns Take it away Suzy!
2:03pm Susan Burns Hi Amybeth!
2:04pm Amybeth Hale Hello Susan :D
2:04pm Suzy BTW:Tweets are 140 chat msgs on Twitter in case you dind't know that by now. One of my fav tools for gathering CI. OK for you TPR'sdo you add value by providing CI to your Clients? If so, what do you provide and what tols do you use?
2:04pm Suzy excuse lame spelling
2:04pm Susan Burns What are TPRs - exscuse the lame acronym knowledge ;-)
2:05pm Jeff Gauthier third party recruiters
2:05pm Susan Burns Thanks Jeff!
2:05pm Suzy Was that too big of a question....?Yes, Third Party Recruiters/Agencies etc
2:05pm Shannon Myers yes and no
2:05pm Eric Gilson We provide CI information regarding salaries to our clients. We use the phone as a tool to gather the information.
2:05pm Jeff Gauthier as a tpr, we share salary/offer info as appropriate from competitors
2:06pm Shannon Myers Agreed more info as related to marketing the position - salaries, benefits, etc
2:06pm Suzy So you wouldn't provide org charts of sorts as an added value?
2:06pm Shannon Myers with names or just to show structure?
2:07pm Suzy well, names are always juicier;-D
2:07pm Jeff Gauthier we would be more inclined to keep that to ourselves
2:07pm Irina Shamaeva We get paid on a contingency basis. I wish we were also paid for providing CI
2:07pm Eric GilsonIt's not that I wouldn't, I just don't currently
2:08pm Kay Hi All, can sombody tell me how do i remove a blog?
2:08pm Paul DeBettignies I share who is hiring, laying off, new products, news not yet out in the community
2:08pm Maureen Sharib I think it's a BIG income area that sourcers can tap into (if they're so inclined).
2:08pm Shannon Myers I think more CI is offered depending on relationship you already have with a client and whether it is for a new position you are recruiting for or more general
2:08pm Kay I mean I posteda blog a couple of days ago now I want to delete it from my page
2:08pm Susan Burns Hi Kay - you can write to Jason through his profile. This is a scheduled chat so they'll be focused on set topic
2:09pm Suzy OK- for corporate recruiters then-is there a CI function w/in your company and do you gather primary research info (phone) and disseminate back to your team and leadership?
2:09pm Kay oops!!!
2:09pm Suzy Thanks Maureen- good point
2:09pm Suzy Paul- that's good stuff you are sharing
2:09pm Dorothy Beach No CI function and yes primary info is given back to team
2:10pm Paul DeBettignies (but I do keep theorg chart to myself)
2:10pm Maureen Sharib CI could be a direct link between recruiting and business devt with outreaches to devt and marketing.
2:10pm Irina Shamaeva Suzy, we work with 2 of your competitors and our relationships with them are good very structured.
2:10pm Irina Shamaeva good but
2:10pm Dorothy Beach Most companies aren't organized to receive much from Recruiting(
2:10pm Suzy Dorothy-can you expand on that thought?
2:11pm Maureen Sharib Most companiesdon't tHINK about what information recruiters and sourcers come across on a daily basis...
2:11pm Paul DeBettignies or that it is as valuable as it is
2:11pm Maureen Sharib Zakly
2:11pm Susan Burns Often recruiting doesn't offer up the info to the right people though - they have to take the lead sometimes
2:11pm Dorothy Beach I meant as far as CI is concerned.
2:11pm Susan Burns If you have the knowledge but don't share it ....who would know to ask?
2:11pm Suzy Yes- so in essence a structured CI function that works hand in hand with recruiting would be ideal, correct?
2:11pm Maureen Sharib They don'tknow howtohANDLE the information for the most part - how toact on it - a lack of criticalthinking IMO
2:11pm Paul DeBettignies yes
2:12pm Irina Shamaeva Yes
2:12pm Eric Gilson I guess that we do provide information on some of our clients competitors. Which verticals or horizontals consulting firms seem to be hiring in. But I would hope that they would already know who they are competing with out there?
2:12pm Suzy Eric- you'd be surprised
2:12pm Paul DeBettignies I know of a big company here in Mpls that calls it the rumor mill. They ask recruiters to pass on any information they ehar about to the VP operations
2:12pm Dorothy Beach No place in an ATS that can capture it and then be serached for - it miiht be illegal to even put it in there? So where to put it?
2:12pm Maureen Sharib My thots zakly Suzy!
2:12pm Susan Burns Suzy - how do you see CI intersecting with workforce planning?
2:12pm Eric Gilson SAP for example....
2:13pm Suzy Paul- well, that's innovative!
2:13pm Maureen Sharib Illegal?
2:13pm Paul DeBettignies nothing formal, just pass it on
2:13pm Suzy Susan- can you maybe rephrase?
2:13pm Maureen Sharib Big audience today Suzy!
2:13pm Suzy HA! Thanks Maureen
2:14pm Susan Burns As you see CI working closely w/ the recruiting function do you also see it working closely with the workforce planning group or person?
2:14pm Eric Gilson How do you use and distribut CI internally Suzy
2:14pm Suzy Dorothy- hmm...yes, good point. ATS might not be the spot for CI-perhaps a newsletter?
2:15pm Suzy Eric- that's for me to know and for you to find out:-0
2:15pm Dorothy Beach I am thinking of risk for a company to let that out - advice on how to handle that kind of info?
2:15pm Susan Burns Suzy - are sharepoint sites being used too?
2:15pm Dorothy Beach Adding this info to a Sharepoint site that has hiring manager access?
2:15pm Suzy Susan- I see CI being used pretty much in all functions of a company. Yes, I've heard of internal Sharepoint sites being used
2:16pm Shannon Myers I would think some CI would be vital to attracting/retaining talent and has to be discussed somewhere
2:16pm Susan Burns what about CRM? Could it be set up to manage the info as well?
2:16pm Suzy I would like to hear fromothers on Dorothy's question...?
2:16pm Irina Shamaeva Suzy, we talk about CI and hopefully we all understand it similarly - but would you mind saying a definition, or listing items?
2:16pm Dorothy Beach You mean CRM like Salesforce that others have access to?
2:17pm Suzy Irina- competitive and business intelligence- what your competitors are doing, hiring, firing, planning on doing, salaries, benefits etc
2:17pm Dorothy Beach Before I forget there is Paul Houston - from SCIP - who specializes in Recruiting and CI
2:17pm Susan Burns Dorothy - yes but access can be protected if needed/desired
2:17pm Irina Shamaeva Thanks
2:18pm Suzy Paul Houston- well check him out- I too am amember of SCIP
2:18pm Suzy Society for Competitive Intelligence Professionals
2:18pm Suzy So how does your company leverage CI to source candidates?
2:19pm Suzy And- when does gathring CI become unethical, in your opinions
2:19pm Dorothy Beach Right now it is the simple stuff - layoff reports, industry reports, analysts reports ...
2:20pm Susan Burns Suzy - do you like what LI is doing with the corporate beta project - is it a good CI resource?
2:21pm Irina Shamaeva We know the competitors and what they are good at so look for candidates there; know when they are about to layoff or are being acquired etc
2:21pm Paul DeBettignies I found staying within my ethics is simple. I always ask people, "what do you know"
2:21pm Dorothy Beach If you go to a new employee and he/she is apporached about their last company but doesn't want to talk about it - the recriter/CI person might push for info too hard - then it might be unethical
2:21pm Paul DeBettignies rarely have to dig further although I may be missing the "really" good stuff
2:21pm Suzy I like what LI did very much- it's not 100% but it certainly gives you som good basic data to work off of
2:22pm Susan Burns Curious - if your working with a prospect that easily offers up info - how do you feel about presenting them to a client?
2:22pm Susan Burns the person that is who just disclosed a bunch of proprietary info ;-)
2:22pm Dorothy Beach Not sure what the corp beta project is?
2:22pm Eric Gilson I would coach him to be a little more tight lipped
2:22pm Suzy I like yuor approach Paul-keep it simple
2:23pm Susan Burns Dorothy - click on a company name in someones profile and you'll see
2:23pm Suzy Agreed with Eric
2:23pm Dorothy Beach Oh you mean the link for company info - yes very interesting and could be expanded
2:24pm Suzy I'm curious- oes your company try to obtain CI from new hires and is that process established?
2:24pm Susan Burns Good question Suzy!
2:24pm Suzy This would be for corporate recruiters
2:24pm Dorothy Beach Not established -
2:24pm Eric Gilson If I was internal, I was ask each new hire for a list of the best people he/she has worked with over the last few years.
2:25pm Eric Gilson every hire
2:25pm Suzy Good one Eric
2:25pm Dorothy Beach Corporations have a hard time just getting employees to put profiles into the address book!
2:25pm Susan Burns When I've seen it done its more informal and inconsistent but should be an established part of the on-boarding process like asking for referrals
2:25pm Dorothy Beach It seems it takes a lot to get info from new employees - maybe because they stress about on-boarding.
2:25pm Amybeth Hale When we hire new people, we use that opportunity to get referrals for hires
2:26pm Shannon Myers Dorthoy - LI is using data from LI users and updates from Capital IQ to be able to show who is where coming and going if you click on some of the companies - still in devp't
2:26pm Amybeth Hale and often in that process we discover good CI nuggets :)
2:26pm Susan Burns Amybeth - how are the CI nuggets shared
2:26pm Amybeth Hale Such as if our competitors do investment hiring, if they've recently had hiring frosts, or perhaps certain areas of their business where they are ramping up (potential new client gains)
2:27pm KarenM / Hirecentrix.com question, does anyone ask if there the candidate signed any non disclosures before asking questions?
2:27pm Suzy That would be a good question, Karen!
2:27pm Susan Burns Karen - would also expect that has come up prior in the hiring process
2:27pm Susan Burns or previously ;-)
2:28pm Dorothy Beach Oh yes, especially in an Exec Search Practice and if the search is confidential
2:28pm Suzy I would asume any self-respecting hiring manager/recruiter would do that
2:28pm Jason C. Blais How much time and how often do people engage in CI activity?
2:28pm Amybeth Hale Precisely. Those things are determined going through the hiring process to begin with.
2:28pm KarenM / Hirecentrix.com another question, then, the candidate has said agreement, and they expose information, what would you do as the recruiter or hiring manager?
2:28pm Suzy Jason: it can be a full-time job or it can be an extension of your recruiting -ask probing questions
2:29pm Susan Burns Amybeth - can u share more about how the info gathered is put to use.....shared with key people.....
2:29pm Eric Gilson My HM's have shot a guy down for this when the info shared was actually public knowledge
2:29pm Jason C. Blais (sorry I'm late to the table- I was at an HR meeting acquiring CI from Corp HR Prof's and Consultants)
2:29pm Susan Burns Suzy - can it overlap with a sourcing strategist role too
2:29pm Eric Gilson yeah yeah
2:29pm Susan Burns So, Jason - you have lots of new CI to share with us then ;-)
2:30pm Suzy Susan- yes indeed Sourcing and CI should go hand in hand
2:30pm Amybeth Hale I'm just a simple researcher. I share what I learn w/ my manager and let him decide what to do with it.
2:30pm Susan Burns Amybeth - u underestimate yourself ;-)
2:30pm Jason C. Blais (reading my ethics and morality book now, trying to determine whether it's okay to share, and if so how)
2:30pm Eric Gilson How about TPR using CI to attract passive candidates?
2:30pm Suzy Amybeth: you are NOT just a simple researcher @:^)
2:31pm Dorothy Beach You mean Eric about the company they are in?
2:31pm Susan Burns Seriously Amybeth - I could see u developing a secret insights book each month that goes to the Board!
2:31pm Eric Gilson "I hear that your current company lost that account or is about to...."
2:31pm Eric Gilson yes
2:31pm Suzy To Karen's point: what would you do if candidate has NDA and exposes info anyway...and the answer is?
2:31pm Jason C. Blais I'd like to hear more about what is done with the CI once you have it- white papers? Meetings? Strategic implementation? newsletters?
2:32pm KarenM / Hirecentrix.com jason that is a good one, and also to add to that, what does your company do to protect themselves if they become privy to info they may not have
2:32pm Suzy Jason- I beleive all of the above would be an ideal mix
2:32pm Susan Burns Suzy - re last Q - (a) shouldn't ask out of respect but (b) if they share I'd say bad hire!
2:33pm Suzy OK- one of MY fave topics- what tools do YOU ue to uncover CI??
2:33pm Susan Burns Many companies have written policies stating that the information can not and should not be used and its grounds for separation
2:33pm Amybeth Hale When we are made aware, either through a tip or a public press release, that a target company has started rounds of layoffs, the other researcher and I set about looking for individuals who work for that company, gather their contact information, and pass it to our recruiters or do initial outreach to them.
2:33pm Dorothy Beach Yes, what is professional in manner? Especially if candidate is to go to a high position
2:34pm Jason C. Blais If there are public layoffs, isn't it appropriate to contact the HR at the location and offer to help with career transition?
2:34pm Susan Burns Suzy - before we go on - wondering if it would be helpful to discern between CI that is appropriate to collect and share and CI that is not appropriate to collec and share
2:34pm Dorothy Beach Now see I have gone straight to the outplacement companies to ask what titles for example are being released
2:34pm Dorothy Beach What the timing is
2:35pm Susan Burns Jason - YES!
2:35pm Dorothy Beach Usually someone in HR in the targeted company that is laying off will tell you which outplacement firm they use
2:35pm Dorothy Beach The onlycompany I haven't been able to get that from was P&G
2:35pm Dorothy Beach But I got it from other sources
2:36pm Suzy Well appropriate is A)anything that is on the internet (for the most part) is fair game and can be shared and B)inappropriate- I guess I don't know since I've never gone there!
2:36pm Dorothy Beach so one should search th einternet before disclosing?
2:37pm Susan Burns So, is information shared during conversation appropriate if its simply offered up and there is not an NDA
2:37pm Jason C. Blais we work with ouplacement firms, to provide "online job hunting tips" to those outplaced. Often they haven't searched for a job in quite some time. As a job posting service, we know we have had exposure to a group from a certain background, and our sales calls other companies to sell access ot our RezDB. Is that commonly agreed to be appropriate?
2:37pm Irina Shamaeva Suzy - what is you get somebody's password to a closed source?
2:37pm Susan Burns I guess there is also a fine line between legal and ethical. Recall hearing of someone getting a hold of a doc online that should not have been available - do you use it or not?
2:38pm Suzy Irina- that sounds un-ethical to me if I hear you correctly
2:38pm Jason C. Blais A little bird told me?
2:38pm Dorothy Beach It seems to me Susan that happens less and less often
2:38pm Amybeth Hale Who's the one to determine if the doc should/should not have been available?
2:38pm Eric Gilson I use Jason's line
2:39pm Suzy Jason & Eric- and that actually flies as an answer?
2:39pm Dorothy Beach so how does one reveal sources of information that might be delicate?
2:39pm Eric Gilson example: A candidate tells me the name of their best Client Partner. I ask if I can use the candidate's name when contacting them. They say no.
2:40pm Jason C. Blais:-! not exactly. Though sometimes the value of the information will bend people's sense of ethics..s
2:40pm Susan Burns AMybeth - in the ex I shared - it was part of an SEC filing for a financial inst - full org chart with names and titles
2:40pm Jason C. Blais ..so i try to avoid those situations as best as possible.
2:40pm Jason C. Blais susan- wow.
2:41pm Suzy And Susan- how did you know it wasn't supposed to be up?
2:41pm Eric Gilson I don't come out and say a birdy told me, what I tell them is that their name was given to me by a individual that I am currently assisting in a confidential job search.
2:41pm Susan Burns Suzy - don't know for sure but it was requested with the filing and I would expect the company did not anticipate it to be an accessible document
2:41pm Eric Gilson Your name came up as someone who is very good at what they do. ALl I can say is that I will offer you the same level of confidentiality that I offer all executives that I engage with.
2:42pm Maureen Sharib full org chart with names and titles That's unusual in an SEC filing. ALL the employees?
2:42pm Dorothy Beach A SEC file not accessible?
2:42pm Eric Gilson and yeah. That works everytime
2:42pm Susan Burns May be more common now with SOX - not sure
2:42pm Jason C. Blais I'm trying to build more CI into our company. I am a member and on the board of HR associations. I attend trade and chamber activities. I build trust and gain info and insight.
2:42pm Susan Burns Maureen - not all but a lot!
2:42pm Dorothy Beach Ohhh - something to look into...
2:43pm Susan Burns Suzy - I think we got off track - you had another question for us
2:43pm Jason C. Blais I become very wary of handing that intelligence to our sales team, as I don't want to burn bridges. We need the info, but have to be tactful on how we use it.
2:43pm Suzy Jason- that sounds like a very good path you're on
2:43pm Irina Shamaeva Someone told me recently that examining source code for web pages is not right, you agree?
2:43pm Jim - medXcentral jumping in late again.. sorry.
2:44pm Amybeth Hale Isn't source code considered to be public domain?
2:44pm Suzy My question was: what tools & techniques do you guys use to gather useful CI?
2:44pm Eric Gilson The telephone
2:44pm Amybeth Hale I love press releases personally - online paper trails. One usually leads to several others
2:44pm Suzy Irina- why is that not right? If anyone is able to view them...
2:44pm Jason C. Blais In a previous life, I worked for a travel broker that guaranteed loweest rates.
2:44pm Maureen Sharib I have allowed my thoughts to wander -my mind to drift - here: If a corporation is a public entity then doesn't the "public" (who holds stock) deserve to be privy to the employee info? I know it's a pipedream...a fantasy...but it sure would be nice! :)
2:44pm Jason C. Blais There was a whole dept devoted to calling all our competitors every day and filling a spreadsheet with rates
2:44pm Dorothy Beach Usual stuff - SEC filings, websites, blogs, LinkedIn sometimes, etc
2:44pm Susan Burns Twitter, LI
2:45pm Irina Shamaeva Say on zoominfo you can view source of your results and emails will not be truncated, easy to get all at once, like cheating
2:45pm Suzy Maureen- nice dream for sure!!
2:45pm Susan Burns Maureen - guess it comes down to intention. Transparency is very good but protecting assets protects the shareholders as well
2:46pm Jason C. Blais Old school but effective. Now there is much more activity on the web, but it's become less reliable. Published info, particularly on the web will always be tainted with spin..
2:46pm Suzy I'm sure RSS feeds are used as well-I like to be on top of things and disseminate to my team ASAP
2:46pm Susan Burns Ultimately - if ee are happy, engaged and taken care of they won't leave. if they want to leave its only a matter of time
2:46pm Jason C. Blais Suzy, do you think more people should have access to CI tools like RSS feeds, or fewer?
2:46pm Susan Burns RSS is going wild - although I heard it may peak at 11% usage
2:47pm Susan Burns Suzy - do u by that # - 11% of Internet users will take advantage of RSS
2:47pm Suzy Jason-it takes a certain type of info-maniac to really stay on top of things, but yes people should have access to RSS feeds by all means!
2:47pm Suzy I know- not that many RSS users kind of boggles my mind- just gave a webinar on setting them up etc
2:47pm Jason C. Blais I mean to say: will productivity suffer from analysis paralysis? Too much time in research, not enough time in action?
2:48pm Maureen Sharib Is there a single most important piece of CI?
2:48pm Susan Burns Jason - good point - comes down to roles and structure to take advantage of it
2:48pm Suzy Jason-that is why Internet Researchers such as Amybeth and I are of great value-let us do the legwork
2:48pm Susan Burns Maureen - do u mean of the data collected or of how its used?
2:48pm Dorothy Beach Yes, how to manage it all - I think you have to try enough venues to understand what gives most pointed info and then cut out all the rest
2:48pm Maureen Sharib The data collected.
2:49pm Susan Burns Suzy - this really emphasizes the importance of how a recruiting/talent function is structured. Much more sophisticated to then previously
2:49pm Charles Bretz Suzy, any tips orbest practices for compiling and sharing your CI - what about storage and access
2:49pm Suzy Thanks Susan- very true.
2:49pm Dorothy Beach Goof Q Maureen - is there such a thing as a single best CI site/blog/whatever?
2:50pm Amybeth Hale Jason: agreed w/ Suzy. Professional researchers know what to do with the mountains of information that would be daunting to most people. It's good to have people like us on staff to filter through these important bits of information.
2:50pm Jason C. Blais In our business, I am the funnel for info from blogs, associations, networks, RSS feeds, etc, for the higher level strategic data collection. We turn that data into seminars accredited by HRCI, offer the seminar, build trust, get leads.
2:50pm Maureen Sharib Or what piece of CI is most valuable? Any opinions?
2:50pm Jason C. Blais However, our sales managers spend a % of time on sales CI...
2:50pm Suzy Charles- well hello there! Ideally, a corporate social networks comprised of RSS feeds, blogs and wikis would be the best way to disseminate CI- IBM has something really good up and running w/even a Twitter like function
2:50pm Susan Burns If someone is on IE could you try and copy the chat stream and send me a doc. I can't get it with Firefox or Safari
2:50pm Dorothy Beach So would a CRM typically used by sales people be a one stop shop?
2:50pm Jason C. Blais Charles- I'm interested in the same- storage and dissemination
2:51pm Amybeth Hale Suzy, do they use Yammer?
2:51pm RecruiterGuy Video for my friends here on RBC... http://www.recruitingblogs.com/video/recruiterguy-the-what-before
2:51pm Amybeth Hale Yammer not has groups you can moderate w/i you company. Great way to get info quickly to large, or small, groups of people
2:51pm Susan Burns Dorothy - to some degree - yes, what biz dev and sales is putting into the CRM it could be very informative
2:51pm Jason C. Blais Susan, I can capture this stream on Firefox. Highlight the first line. Then hold the shift and click on the last line, copy paste
2:51pm Maren Hogan oh good I was gonna say that Chris just put up a really cool post on slicin g and dicing the RSS feeds you get
2:51pm Suzy IBM uses something proprietary called Beehive I beleive-I've tried Yammer- it's OK
2:52pm Susan Burns well thank you Jason!
2:52pm Susan Burns Jason - still can't get it but I'm on a mac - is that why
2:53pm Susan Burns Suzy - is beehive avail outside of IBM or proprietary in dev and use?
2:53pm Suzy Maureen- as far as best piece of CI-all relative to your company...
2:53pm Jason C. Blais I'll get it at 4... though I only came in at 3:12, so missed some. I'll send it to you
2:53pm Charles Bretz I can copy and paste the thread. who should I send it to?
2:53pm Suzy Susan- Beehive is their internal twitter tool
2:53pm Susan Burns thanks Charles - email@example.com
2:53pm Charles Bretz You'll have it at the end
2:54pm Susan Burns You data junkies (me too btw) may also be interested in a new book called the Numerati on how companies, esp IBM, are using data to make a lot of decisions about team structure and project deployment - some good internal. Not sure how much may be CI related but possibly
Suzy Thanks Susan- will look into it
2:55pm Susan Burns Suzy - do you have any closing thoughts or last questions
2:55pm Amybeth Hale Numerati was recommended to my by a prominent analyst relations professional as well. As you are the second person to recommend it, I guess I should go buy it :)
2:55pm RecruiterGuy Susan seriously?? By BAker?
2:56pm Suzy BTW- I thank all of you for being here and chatting and I hope it was all worth your while
2:56pm Susan Burns You can read an excerpt of the book in BusinessWeek - or Newsweek - forget which one
2:56pm Eric Gilson Stay happy Suzi. Thinking about you guys!
2:56pm Jason C. Blais I'm glad to know that CI is blossoming and i'm on the right track!
2:56pm Jason C. Blais THanks
2:56pm Suzy Thanks Eric- it's gorgeous out here and you need to come visit
2:56pm Eric Gilson Keller was last night!
2:56pm Eric Gilson I didn't go
2:57pm Susan Burns Suzy - this has been a great chat! Thanks much for all of your insight! I know this was a tough day for you with the loss of your dog and appreciate you spending time with us
2:57pm Suzy Aww-thanks Susan- it was a good distraction
2:57pm Susan Burns Thanks everyone for joining Talent Talk Cafe today - lots of great insight about CI, the value it brings and how to navigate some sensitive areas…