The Price of Experience - Exploring Ageism

Almost seven years ago, I attended my first health care human resource conference as an exhibitor. I was nervous and had pieced together an outfit as I didn't own a full-fledged suit. What was I thinking? I am NOT a salesman or so I kept telling my boss. The retained search firm I was with had a booth and we were getting ready to "educate" attendees as to why our services were better than any other search firm. The doors to the Exhibitor's Hall opened and in came the throngs of HR Professionals... My boss leaned over and whispered in my ear, pointing up the aisle, "We want to work for her." A woman was making her way toward us, I felt like I was waiting to meet the queen and, indeed, I was.

Nancy Rubin stepped into our booth and shook my hand. I was blown away by her poise and character. Then as she parted, she said, "It was nice to meet you, Rayanne." She remembered my name. And I would never forget hers. Nancy was the Chief Human Resource Officer for the Providence Health System overseeing four states, 45,000 employees (8,000 under her direct purview) and she had been with Providence for eighteen years. She represented the hospital our firm wanted to work for. Another recruiter in our office secured several searches with Providence and I have always considered it a privilege to have this association.

A few years ago, the Hospital Association of Southern California contracted with our firm to bring in a Vice-President of Human Resources. It was considered a huge coup when Ms. Rubin left the Providence organization to take the position with HASC. Seventeen months later, it was mutually agreed upon that Nancy would step down from this position. The reasons: change needed that no one wanted, former VP cast a huge shadow, objectives had not been clear, salary disputes, etc .

And now here we are, over a year later. Nancy, former CHRO for one of the largest non-profit organizations in the West, a highly respected expert in her field, former VP - HR for an association that benefits the health care HR professionals in Southern California.... still looking for a job.

Why? Nancy is brilliant, funny, kind, exceptionally knowledgeable, well-versed in HR laws, a consummate businesswoman with an outstanding reputation. She networks with her recruitment and HR friends, cruises through the job boards, has interviewed with top executive search firms but to no avail. Again, why? Because she is 58. I asked her why, "Ageism..., a recruiter actually told me I was too old. I have heard it all: that I didn't know what a hard operational HR job was, that I was over-qualified, they were looking for a different profile..."

She has never misrepresented her age but, still, she was surprised to hear it actually said out loud considering the legalities attached to that kind of statement. The recruiter who said the words too old was representing a hospital that had just settled a $30 million lawsuit, "I would have thought they would want someone who could help them avoid additional legal issues..." They want someone mid-career, not someone who has 'been there, done that.' "That did wake me up and it is definitely an issue."

Options? "There are not very many. I could hang out my own shingle and someone has talked to me about working with outplacement. I just keep networking and going back to job boards. The ideal position would be with talent development or consulting, strategic planning, or organizational development. And yes, the economy definitely contributes. In the past, I might have been hired temporarily, they would have taken a chance."

I find it ironic that the same people that once bowed to the queen, who consistently wooed her, and yearned to have her sign on the line which is dotted are gone - nowhere. Friends with smaller firms have stayed in touch and call every once in a while to see how she is doing. It is the big firms that have disappointed her - they have disappeared. "During my career, I have given them a considerable amount of work." Nancy continues, "It is a good lesson that you are not just your work. You have more value in the world, this would be twenty times more difficult if you didn't."

She gives a last piece of advice, "I think it is typical of those in HR to put others way ahead and keep themselves at the bottom of the list. Push yourself to the top and always have your resume ready to go. Always network, even when you are not looking for a job. You cannot afford to not do these things, you never do know..." Nancy adds, "If there is ever a time in your life that you need to ask friends and family for help and support, you have to go ahead and do it. You need to do it, humble yourself and don't give up."

To find what you seek in the road of life, the best proverb of all is the which says, "Leave no stone unturned." ~Edward Bulwer Lytton

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on April 15, 2009 at 5:15am

Watch Simon's reaction when Susan says, "I am forty-seven..."
What Susan is experiencing is real - it's ugly - and it walks among us everyday.

"But there are dreams that cannot be
And there are storms we cannot weather" ~ "I Dreamed a Dream" Lyrics [Fantine is left alone, unemployed and destitute]

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Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on April 15, 2009 at 11:13am

About three weeks ago I posted a remark in a couple of my sourcing groups that I had read that unemployment in recruiting was over 50% and asked for member comments. I was struck by the chord of ageism thatran through some of them. Here's the link to the original post - once there, scroll down to read through the comments.
My friends and I have 20+ years of experience and even though we do get interviews, that next step just hasn't happen.(offer) I always receive the feedback that I would be bored. Please let me be bored!

I hear you. I am 52 and it is as if I have outlived my potential.... I hate it.

PLUS ! Something which I have not seen anyone address is the fact that for the first time since like the 70's; ads are specifying age preferences !?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Levy on April 16, 2009 at 7:36am

There are those who naively believed that the CRA eradicated race discrimination - sure it did [dripping sarcasm].

There are those who believed that EO 11246 eradicated harassment in the "federal" workplace - uh huh [more dripping sarcasm]

Should I continue?

The EEOC is not the solution; the EEOC is a neutered government agency that in the end over reacts to the complaints before the facts are in. It is run by bureaucrats who function to first and foremost maintain themselves. This is why I liked Vault.com when it initially came on the scene - people would post assessments of the company, of interviews, of any interaction that was positive and negative.

This is what I'm going to do from now on - when my older friends believe they were subject to age discrimination, I'll use my contacts to investigate with a goal of re-visiting the interview on as fair a platform as possible. I believe all of us with networks should do this.

This is how change begins...

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Permalink Reply by Steve Levy on April 16, 2009 at 5:51pm

Thanks Ray - the threat of being blogged about should never be shrugged off...

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Permalink Reply by Martin H.Snyder on April 16, 2009 at 6:57pm

I'm not sure ANYONE is getting jobs at the moment. I have been pleased to hire folks in their 50's at our firm- one of them is a super hard working salesperson. Its not the miles on the odometer, its the energy in the the tank that matters; to me at least. People do age at dramatically different rates- I have interviewed folks in their 50's who have clearly slowed down and are starting to have memory and communication issues- OTH our CFO's father comes across like a 25 year old both physically and intellectually....

Nancy may want to seek tiny jobs at tiny firms, where her powers will make a big difference- soon enough, she may be able to make a space more fitted to her stature.

Imagine the life of pro athletes- in many cases, shot by age 30-32, having to re-enter normal life. Ouch !

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Permalink Reply by Steve Levy on April 16, 2009 at 8:31pm

Sandra, It's Viagra doesn't come up

Also, when you act your age, you're dead

Finally, since I recently turned 50 (anyone out there who really thinks they can out push-up me, I have a c-note that says you can't), my Mom and I have something in common...AARP

The issue here is multifacted. First, the media runs ageism stories bass ackwards - how about stories where members of the AARP crowd kick some balance sheet ass? Two, as you noted, ...part of the problem is younger recruiters who don't know how to sell an older candidate - hey, younger recruiters, can you give me examples of older workers who don't cut it? Three, business education covertly inculcates in students that older doesn't cut it - think entrepreneurism classes and how GenYs are special.

And older women...at our age sexual harassment is a compliment , who would throw a fit? Sandra, at our age, sexual harassment is an Olympic sport...

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Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on April 21, 2009 at 5:10am

Fascinating discussion about age here - remarks come from all walks of life and many are very, very candid! A small sample:
The main reason younger workers are hired is that they get a smaller salary.

I’d probably be wary of the older women too but I’d be the least likely to hire an older man.

...the cumulative effect of 30+ years of salary growth — at compound interest, let’s not forget — may mean that the senior person earns nearly double what the almost equally productive junior person does.

A lack of general skills makes it harder for them to learn new software, and many seem to resent having to learn.

The technology knowledge lag is huge.

I prefer hiring “older” workers. To be perfectly blunt, they have less child care issues and don’t expect to be able to take 3 hour lunches because “Thursday is yoga class.”

Why hire someone who knows all your tricks when you can hire someone who is naive enough to believe them?

Humans would rather hire a young, attractive person in the workplace than an old, not so good looking one.

Health care costs to firms are a thorny issue ...

At 54 yrs...I’ve never heard of the concept, “You have to make me happy” until I clarified no support for personal tunes on the workstations. I’ve had to explain numerous times why the server blocks certain websites, including net radio sites. I’m the one who has to educate these people with standard office applications. I have to remind them to write the instructions down after the 3rd or 4th time of demonstration..."

All those snobby nosed latch key kids that are now labled Generation X need to be told where to go. Yoga class during work…..please.

Age isn’t the problem in any workplace: (the lack of) maturity is.

And the list goes on, and on...here.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Sullivan on April 22, 2009 at 3:14pm

Ageism, or more precisely, age warfare, like class warfare, race warfare, and the "so called" battle between
the sexes, do all, unfortunately, exist. Often the age issue gets the least press; particularly in the US- because
there is no economic and media support for those over 50+ (except for with things like Flomax, Viagra, and
antidepressant and anti Alzheimer drugs)

One way to deal with this in the workplace is to have indispensable skills. I have a close relative who was begged to work till he was 70 (the company, a fortune 50 conglomerate, had a 65 year old retirement policy) so he was picked up by their international division Now, he is 85 and still receiving calls to consult on his area expertise internationally, steam turbine generators.

Of course, this is exceptional. Recently I, a person in his 50's, for leisure and mental stimulation was enrolled in a Masters program at an Ivy league school that involved philosophy and film. I was shocked that virtually no
students had any knowledge of philosophy, once known as the queen of the sciences. My examples are a bit extreme. But when I deal with non Europeans and Native Americans I receive much respect, which I don't ask for. Perhaps they have more stable traditions, are not techno-fetishists (some are though), and are just more comfortable in who they are and where they are going. This does mean that all Americans- or Europeans- feel this way, but the majority do and the person in this age group, through a kind of brainwashed self fulfilling prophecy.

Ten years ago there was the thought that people over 65, would be able to work, in a high capacity, as long as they could. Obviously that went nowhere, but could come back. I recall reading that you can evaluate the strength of of a culture in how well they treat, and accept as equals, their older and sicker members. On that basis our culture is sick indeed. Of course there aren't many 50 year old's that can code 12 hours a day, just as there aren't many, or any, presidents or other world leaders, under 40.

I think that women are victimized by ageism much more than men. If you look at the old Hollywood star systems, women over 25 were peaking and on the way down. Thanks to feminism this has gotten somewhat better, but there is definitely no age/sex equality in the movies or the media.

Maureen Sharib said:

Fascinating discussion about age here - remarks come from all walks of life and many are very, very candid! A small sample:
The main reason younger workers are hired is that they get a smaller salary.

I’d probably be wary of the older women too but I’d be the least likely to hire an older man.

...the cumulative effect of 30+ years of salary growth — at compound interest, let’s not forget — may mean that the senior person earns nearly double what the almost equally productive junior person does.

A lack of general skills makes it harder for them to learn new software, and many seem to resent having to learn.

The technology knowledge lag is huge.

I prefer hiring “older” workers. To be perfectly blunt, they have less child care issues and don’t expect to be able to take 3 hour lunches because “Thursday is yoga class.”

Why hire someone who knows all your tricks when you can hire someone who is naive enough to believe them?

Humans would rather hire a young, attractive person in the workplace than an old, not so good looking one.

Health care costs to firms are a thorny issue ...

At 54 yrs...I’ve never heard of the concept, “You have to make me happy” until I clarified no support for personal tunes on the workstations. I’ve had to explain numerous times why the server blocks certain websites, including net radio sites. I’m the one who has to educate these people with standard office applications. I have to remind them to write the instructions down after the 3rd or 4th time of demonstration..."

All those snobby nosed latch key kids that are now labled Generation X need to be told where to go. Yoga class during work…..please.

Age isn’t the problem in any workplace: (the lack of) maturity is.

And the list goes on, and on...here.