Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Colin Kingsbury on April 13, 2011 at 10:54am

Isn't this problem easily solved by employers saying, "No, I'm not going to pay you that much?"

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Suresh on April 13, 2011 at 10:57am

If this downturn did not teach us anything, we are out of luck.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Robin Stanton on April 13, 2011 at 12:06pm

I believe some of the expectation is raised by our colleges and universities advising (or implying) their grads that they can expect a certain salary based on their degree area or the reputation of the school.  I once had a candidate walk away from a job offer because "the average salary of grads in her degree were $X per year" and our offer was about $8K short of that amount, this was a recent grad with no professional work experience.  I learned from that experience that it is up to me as a recruiter to manage those expectations.  I must discover ahead of time what the candidates expectations are, advise them the salary range for the position and sell the complete compensation package not just the salary.  Yes, Colin, the employer can just say no, but as I learned, at that point you may lose the candidate and have to start over.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Joshua Byron on April 13, 2011 at 12:07pm

I disagree slightly - I think a lot of the blame goes to educational institutions, specifically those with business management majors.  Too often, entry level graduates of these degree programs think that it entitles them to bypass entry level positions and "Go into management."  

 

The interview killer is when I ask them what exactly it is they want to manage, because they typically find it a very difficult question to answer.  The truth is, especially in my organization, you can't manage anyone or anything  without having done the work yourself, and often for quite a long time. 

 

Schools should really temper "management" majors' expectations of the job market, and make them aware that they will ultimately have to humble themselves enough to work their way up from the bottom. Good organizations will provide a road map to goals and career development.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Todd Lempicke on April 13, 2011 at 12:22pm

Salary calculators are part of the blame. I am trying to assemble some opinions from recruiters on salary calculators and would love your input. Here is one from the NACE or the National Association of Colleges and Employers.

http://www.jobsearchintelligence.com/NACE/jobseekers/salary-calcula...

Private opinions can be sent to toddl@nc.rr.com

Thanks!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sandra McCartt on April 13, 2011 at 12:29pm

Well, interesting post.  In my bubble new grads are getting anywhere from a minimum (bare minimum) of 30K for a BBA in general business to 65K for an entry level Petroleum Engineer.  Since secretaries and bookkeepers are making anywhere from 15.00 to 25.00 an hour and call centers are paying 12.00 to 14.00 an hour for people who can walk and breath and show up when they feel like it...it may be your part of the world where new grads are struggling.

 

I don't see many candidates who are working who want to make a lateral move and most companies i work with anticipate offering 10 to 15% increases to hire a new employee.  So my stats are not lining up with your take that people who are looking for career advancement should not also be looking for salary advancement.

 

As to outsourcing.  I would suggest that the cost of healthcare benefits, all the EEOC, and the other alphabet agencies that have poked their nose into the business sector as well as tax rates are more responsible for outsourcing than people expecting to be compensated for getting an education.

 

I would agree with some of the sense of entitlement when it comes to the stuff of "work/life balance" and some of the other trendy gunk that gen y is yapping about that is keeping them from getting hired as opposed to the geny new grad who walks in and says, "Just graduated, ready to go, let me at em".

 

And frankly, right now i am thinking that America is recovering pretty quickly rather than being killed so maybe it's just your area of the world or your verticle that is having trouble.  Mine seems to be moving full steam ahead.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sandra McCartt on April 13, 2011 at 12:40pm

@Todd the salary calculators in my experience are a joke.  I know i have a problem anytime a candidate on any level tells me they have researched salaries for what they do and they should get XyZ.  I ran them myself once for the areas and positions i place and found them to be for the most part wildly off the mark for both position and location  I think this is because any company that is willing to report salary information either reports way high or way low and people do the same thing.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Scott Corwin on April 13, 2011 at 1:51pm

I concur it is frustrating, no infuriating to have someone with or without experience come across with entitlement. I have gone as far as asking why do you think I should pay you $100K? The response was, “Well my college counselor said…”  I then suggest they go take that job.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ronald on April 13, 2011 at 2:18pm

Luke my Friend.  You are taking me a little too literally.  If you want to get into a long debate, there are a lot of things "killing America".  However, this is a recruiting blog, so i try to stick with the relevance of employment.  

 

Truth is, I do not have the solution.  However, I can say a couple things.  You validated my point by saying people feel a sense of entitlement because they went to college.  However, I have a candidate right now from Ethiopia.  He went to college and moved here 3 years ago.  He passed his CPA and he is working as a bagger at a grocery store.  He would take $12 per hour and would be happy. 

 

Point is that we have a sense of entitlement in America.  How many unemployed professional American's do you know would "stoop to a grocery store level".  Not many, because we tell ourselves we are too good for that.  Instead, we drain the unemployment pool.

 

I am not saying it is the only reason, but I am saying that it is a factor for driving up salaries and costs for businesses to do business here.  When costs go up, businesses look to save money.  That is simple the economy of doing business.  Therefore, Yes, I am saying that part of the blame is in the hands of American Citizens.

 

Speaking of, another thing that is killing America is people's inability to take responsibility.  I will save that one for another time.  ;-)

 

Watch my video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoKj5fIWojc

Luke Toland said:

People go to college with the expectation that they'll earn a better living than the minimum to average wage. Hence, graduates are hoping to make more than $7.50-$20 an hour. Slashing pay rates without a commensurate cut in the cost of education is hardly a way to incentivize people to go to college. When people walk away with between $50k - $200k in college debt that cannot be swept away through bankruptcy, you bet people feel a sense of entitlement.

 

I think it's outlandish to point the finger of blame at U.S. citizens that they are to blame for corporations in outsourcing jobs to other countries. Countries experience real wage growth, growth over and above that of inflation, due to a rise in productivity. Often, that productivity comes from the knowledge gained at college, from capital input and technology, and simply working harder. Outsourcing is not a function of greedy Americans (yes I took the bait on that statement). It's a function of America shifting away from unskilled labor to skilled labor. Where does that leave unskilled labor in America - that's hard to say. They've borne the full front of the recession with unemployment rates double that of those with college degrees.

 

Regarding your headline, no entry level jobs are not killing America. That's pure sensationalism. Many graduates start off in the $30-50k bracket. That seems more than fair given the opportunity cost of leaving the workforce for at least four years and the cost of education. What's your solution? Halve the starting rate for entry level employees? Lower the expectations across the board? That's great. But you'll probably 'kill' America in another way - you'll lower the intake rate. Fewer knowledge workers means a less competitive economy. You can kiss any chance of recovering from the recession once that premium wage incentive is gone. 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ronald on April 13, 2011 at 2:54pm

Agreed and if you look at my first post, I go into the fact that the title was just a title!  Everyone is causing this ( I am not intentionally picking on entry level people).   And you are right, what is wrong with entitlement??  I never said it was a negative thing.  You assumed I meant it as negative.   However, my point remains...you can not get mad when companies look at ways to cut costs when we are the ones driving up the expenses.

Luke Toland said:

How many students have been in the bagger/waiter/clerk/hourly wage position prior to getting a full-time job? How many of them have interned for 12 weeks unpaid and still had to scrape their way to pay for rent? Entitlement exists but what's wrong with that? That's not a bad thing per se. So many people slog it for years through college and hourly work before they get their first professional pay check. Those who have never been in that position may still feel entitled. And good on them. There's a difference between feeling entitled to a job that pays commensurate to your skill level and college degree and demanding pay over and above what you're worth.

The market decides the pay rate. Ultimately, if the candidate wants to be a snot, they won't get far. If the employer has to raise rates to attract talent, that's Labor Economics working in full swing. It affects everyone, not just entry levels.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ronald on April 13, 2011 at 2:55pm

By the way, did you watch my video?

Ronald said:

Agreed and if you look at my first post, I go into the fact that the title was just a title!  Everyone is causing this ( I am not intentionally picking on entry level people).   And you are right, what is wrong with entitlement??  I never said it was a negative thing.  You assumed I meant it as negative.   However, my point remains...you can not get mad when companies look at ways to cut costs when we are the ones driving up the expenses.

Luke Toland said:

How many students have been in the bagger/waiter/clerk/hourly wage position prior to getting a full-time job? How many of them have interned for 12 weeks unpaid and still had to scrape their way to pay for rent? Entitlement exists but what's wrong with that? That's not a bad thing per se. So many people slog it for years through college and hourly work before they get their first professional pay check. Those who have never been in that position may still feel entitled. And good on them. There's a difference between feeling entitled to a job that pays commensurate to your skill level and college degree and demanding pay over and above what you're worth.

The market decides the pay rate. Ultimately, if the candidate wants to be a snot, they won't get far. If the employer has to raise rates to attract talent, that's Labor Economics working in full swing. It affects everyone, not just entry levels.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ronald on April 13, 2011 at 4:22pm

Erik, no reason to insult.  The inanity  of this post is purely speculative.  If you find it pointless, don't read it.  If all you can do is insult, then no reason to post.  Discussions are for just that...discussing.  Of course there are going to be differing opinions and I welcome yours.

 

However, I I will have to ask if you read the post??  It very quickly went away from entry level candidates and in fact, I don't blame them.  I blame people like you and me that raised them. 

 

Also, you said yourself that companies outsource to make an extra penny on the stock.  So, in order to do that, they have to improve their standing in Wall Streets eyes, right?  That means, cut expenses without decrease revenue, acquisition, winning a large piece of business, blah, blah, blah.  Simply outsourcing does not increase the stock price.  The impact that outsourcing makes on the books would.  And what is the number one reason to outsource?  Right, cutting expenses.  And what is the top expense for most companies?  Right, employee costs.  Therefore, using the concept of deduction could lead to the statement of Greedy Americans are partly to blame for outsourcing.

Erik Davids said:

"Greedy American"

 

This has to be the most inane post I've ever read on this site. 

 

Are you in sales?  If so, maybe you should think about getting out of it.  I make a habit of placing entry level IT candidates and have never run across this attitude.  Companies outsource to make an extra penny on the stock dollar, not because of "Greedy" entry level candidates entering the market.

 

 

 

 

 

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page