Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sandra McCartt on April 13, 2011 at 5:57pm

Ronald, when one writes a speculative insulting headline to grab one's readers, it's my take that it is a bit passive aggressive to come back and patronize someone who was irritated by one's speculative insulting headline.

 

It's sort of SSSSSnakey in my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Thomas Patrick Chuna on April 14, 2011 at 8:10am

Actually, the federal reserve printing money out of thin air, thus devaluing the dollar, thus causing commodity prices to skyrocket, thus also inflating the overall cost of products, services, and overall living, thus making it impossible to have a life on less than 40K a year, is what's killing america. there's todays econ lesson for you.

 

The "entitlement mentality" you speak of is just human nature...yeah, you run into some spoiled brats that won't pay their dues and work their way up, but they'll wash out anyway..how eager are you to work placements for fifty bucks a crack so you can do YOUR part to keep costs down? didn't think so.

 

Americans aren't competitive in the global world because the rules got changed and they were the last to know..when trade agreements put them in direct competition with foreign workers who have no choice but to work in a factory for a buck a day, and the american consumer feels it's their divine right to pay five dollars for everything at walmart, they get left out and hit hard..it also doesn't help that the basic educational system fails kids, and parents oftentimes refuse to be parents, but that's another post. 

 

The fact that it's the politicians of both parties, the corporations, and the banks vs. the people, that's what's killing america.

 

The guy trying to get a job at a decent living wage right out of college isn't the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Ronald on April 14, 2011 at 9:43am

Morgan, I am not trying to say that people don't work hard or work for the money they make.  However, in my opinion, America has turned into a lazy society.  You don't have to agree and I do respect that.  I am not saying that entry level candidates can not get the salary they want or ask for.  I am not saying that people can't ask for more money when  they leave.  

 

You half way agreed with my analysis by saying people "should" ask for more money when looking for a new job.  Should tells me that you think people are entitled.  I am not saying that is right or wrong.  I am simply saying that asking for more money eventually drives up salary parity and everyone is getting around that amount.  Thus increasing companies largest expense, salary costs.  You don't think Dell’s move had anything to do with that?

It is our fault my friend.  We caused the society in which companies feel that they can cut costs elsewhere, and they can.  AND, we let it happen.  I am sorry you do not agree and I know there are other factors, but if you break it down, it is our fault.  If not, I would be very curious whose fault it is.

If you have a business, 2 candidates, same skill set.  One costs you $30k, one costs $50k.  Which one do you take??  Benefit minus Costs equal value.  Unfortunately, the answer use to be we have more talent.  We can not use that excuse much longer.

I apologize if you found my posting abrasive.  I guess at the end of the day, my point is simply we need to get more competitive in America because we are losing our swagger.  It kills me because I do love this country.

Morgan Hoogvelt said:

Upon first reading the couple sentences of this post I thought it was going to be on point, however when I got to the part of the paragraph when you quoted asking salaries - now I can say you are way off point and are focusing on only a micro-view of things. 

First off, in recruiting we want to get our candidates more money - hell, all job seekers on their own should want more money.  Have you not looked around and do you not see that the majority of American workers are underpaid and over worked?

And way to blast the American worker as it is our fault our jobs are being outsourced.  Did you not put one thought into this whole scenario?  People move and leave because there is no job security.  Gone are the days where you can put in your time, hard work and loyalty and get repaid in the end with benefits and a retirement paycheck.  But a company, such as Dell, will not hesitate to close an entire plant down and ship all jobs to Mexico to save a few pennies on each unit produced.  You ever read that case study?

As for new grads, our corporate society requires education, everyone wants at least a Bachelors degree in the majority of jobs.  Congrats, you have your degree - what's that?  You are in the hole $50k which the govt is kind enough to let you pay back over the next 50 years.  Oh and by the way, here is your starting salary - $30k. 

In case you didn't realize this, workers in the 70's were already making $7.50/hr + benefits.  Now in those same exact position today, they are making $7.25/hr with no benefits, how the hell does this make sense?  And it’s not a sense of entitlement, it’s a sense of putting in the hard work and hours to get educated and to get paid for your work, knowledge and expertise.  Probably the same reasons why you are in recruiting, because the money is good. 

I'd say next time you get an idea to write a post like this, unless you are trying to start controversy, to do your research and make sure you have solid talking points.  As a recruiter you should know that even the unemployed people have to maintain a proper resume and career path going forward.  It's not that Americans won't stoop to taking a lower job, its that we cannot afford to.  

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Permalink Reply by Ronald on April 14, 2011 at 11:45am

Thomas, I think you are saying something similar to my point.  At the end of the day, the post was comparing Americans to the Global world.  I am not by any means saying we are all bad, but every empire falls and unless we do something to compete, we will fall sooner rather than later. 

 

I am not an economist but look back and ask yourself why the government started printing Money with no backing?  And, who let them do that??  Also, ask why it is impossible to live on less than $40k?  Did you realize that the Average credit card debt per household is $16,007 (that is just CC, not including car, mortgage, etc.)??  This is a little off topic, but people in America do not live within their means.  Seniors graduating College have $4100 in CC debt. 

 

It is not impossible to live on $40k per year (95% of the world lives on much less), you just don't want to because very few Americans live inside their means.  We deserve more.  We deserve better than everyone esle because we are America, Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.  We are accustomed to a certain standard and damn anyone who tells us we can't have it.

 

Again, this is simply one factor of many.  I could not tell in your post if you agreed or disagreed, either way, I think you are saying the same thing.  Just in a different way.

 

a reason is that Americans have grown accustomed to living
Thomas Patrick Chuna said:

Actually, the federal reserve printing money out of thin air, thus devaluing the dollar, thus causing commodity prices to skyrocket, thus also inflating the overall cost of products, services, and overall living, thus making it impossible to have a life on less than 40K a year, is what's killing america. there's todays econ lesson for you.

 

The "entitlement mentality" you speak of is just human nature...yeah, you run into some spoiled brats that won't pay their dues and work their way up, but they'll wash out anyway..how eager are you to work placements for fifty bucks a crack so you can do YOUR part to keep costs down? didn't think so.

 

Americans aren't competitive in the global world because the rules got changed and they were the last to know..when trade agreements put them in direct competition with foreign workers who have no choice but to work in a factory for a buck a day, and the american consumer feels it's their divine right to pay five dollars for everything at walmart, they get left out and hit hard..it also doesn't help that the basic educational system fails kids, and parents oftentimes refuse to be parents, but that's another post. 

 

The fact that it's the politicians of both parties, the corporations, and the banks vs. the people, that's what's killing america.

 

The guy trying to get a job at a decent living wage right out of college isn't the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by vanessa sweazey on April 14, 2011 at 12:46pm

Interesting post, and, as a Recruiter, I can relate to the obnoxious sense of entitlement that some new grads have when discussing starting salaries. Most of them throw out a number with no real justification, it's just what they think they are worth.

However, I disagree that they are 'Killing America'. I think that new grads who believe in the value that they can bring to a potential employer may help balance the salary landscape that we are currently seeing. In the Creative and Marketing industry, over the past few years, we have been seeing experienced professionals accepting salaries of $35 - $45k out of desperation - leading companies to snag 'thoroughbreds' for a 'miniature pony' price tag which has totally thrown the value of professionals out of whack. This practice may be 'killing America' a bit more than entry level grads wanting to be paid fairly. I am all for individuals standing up and asking to be paid commensurate with their skills, and not accepting whatever paltry figure is offered to them because they need work.

 

Overall, thought provoking article, thanks for putting it out there! 

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Permalink Reply by Ronald on April 14, 2011 at 1:17pm

Thank you...as you said thought provoking.   I actually don't think it is Entry Level candidates fault, I think we are all a little to blame.  Either way.  Interesting to think about.

vanessa sweazey said:

Interesting post, and, as a Recruiter, I can relate to the obnoxious sense of entitlement that some new grads have when discussing starting salaries. Most of them throw out a number with no real justification, it's just what they think they are worth.

However, I disagree that they are 'Killing America'. I think that new grads who believe in the value that they can bring to a potential employer may help balance the salary landscape that we are currently seeing. In the Creative and Marketing industry, over the past few years, we have been seeing experienced professionals accepting salaries of $35 - $45k out of desperation - leading companies to snag 'thoroughbreds' for a 'miniature pony' price tag which has totally thrown the value of professionals out of whack. This practice may be 'killing America' a bit more than entry level grads wanting to be paid fairly. I am all for individuals standing up and asking to be paid commensurate with their skills, and not accepting whatever paltry figure is offered to them because they need work.

 

Overall, thought provoking article, thanks for putting it out there! 

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Permalink Reply by Ronald on April 14, 2011 at 2:01pm

There is no solution that one person can do.  Everyone has a part.  Unfortunately, I think most people are too far involved in self.  Therefore, my thought is that America will conitnue to lose its luster until some sort of major occurrence.  Not sure what that would be.

 

I find your statement of settling for pennies to help companies lower costs and expand their profits to get rich interesting.  This argument proves my point.  Your argument is that the company I work for makes all this money and I am entitled to my fair share.  And what is your fair share??  Who decides?  Ultimately you because if you feel they are not paying you what you are worth, you go elsewhere.  Thus increasing employees costs for another company in the process.  Again, not saying right or wrong. 

 

I apologize about rehashing a previous point, but your Dell situation proves my point perfectly and I am not certain if you agree or not.  I can't tell your stance.  Again, this is not about right and wrong.  BUT, they did that to cut costs and the highest cost for most (if not all) employers is employee costs (salaries, benefits, etc.).  So again, how does it not prove my point? 

 

And one more time.  I am not saying entitlement is right or wrong.  However, our actions have consequences.  Because we as Americans are entitled to things, we are going to continually force companies to make decisions that impact expenses.  I am not sure you are an accountant, but look at any companies P&L and let me know the percentage of their expenses is due to employees.  Therefore it is safe to say that employee costs have a lot to do with companies decisions.

 

Morgan Hoogvelt said:

So then what is your solution?  Settle for working for pennies to help companies lower their costs and expand their profits so they can make their executives and shareholders rich?  Also, with your example of (2) candidates, in all my years and experience in recruiting, I have never seen two exact candidates, with exact skill sets at with salaries so far apart, doesn’t happen.  Bottom line for companies or anyone, is you pay for what you get.  If you want a Thoroughbred, be prepared to pay for one.  But if you are cool with a miniature pony, there are plenty of those around. 

 

Dells move to Mexico was to cut massive costs, we are not talking about cutting people’s salaries in the U.S. by a few dollars, they took all their jobs and specific plants to Mexico and are now paying the same factory assemblers there $2/hr, a pure form of exploitation; not to mention no environmental rules and what not.  I helped several people who worked at these Dell plants here in the U.S for years and dedicated themselves to Dell then watched their livelihoods vanish so Dell can max profits.     

 

You choose to use the word “entitlement” so fine, I am with you – I…we are entitled!  Entitle: to give (a person) the right to do or have something; qualify; allow

 

We go to college why?  Because society requires it, because those with a degree will out earn the non-degreed, because specific jobs require the skill set a degree allows.  So yes, we all build our skill sets, education, attributes, etc to move up in the world, to take on more responsibility, to make more money, etc.  If you want to define it as entitlement, do so.  If one puts in the hard work, effort and has the skills they deserve to be rewarded accordingly; aren’t you for the placements you make?

 

You post does make some good points, I just think you should have geared this toward a complete different audience - corporate executives, professional athletes, movie/music stars and so forth because they are the ones with the outrageous salaries and crazy demands.  That would have been a better target audience instead of the working class of America who is already way behind when all we are doing is trying to get ahead.  I respect your opinions, I just don’t and won’t ever agree on this subject.  Yes, there are pockets of lazy Americans everywhere, but the majority of us keep this country and economy turning everyday by getting out of bed and working in underpaid jobs consistently looking over our shoulders watching for cuts and layoffs. 

 

In the Marine Corps they teach their officers to lead from the front - why don’t you start this process off by taking the lead and drop your current role and take a $8/hr job, perhaps some people will fall in behind you.  Or, if you are an agency recruiter, start on a pro-bono basis today so companies don’t have to pay fees and incur costs. 

 

Ronald said:

Morgan, I am not trying to say that people don't work hard or work for the money they make.  However, in my opinion, America has turned into a lazy society.  You don't have to agree and I do respect that.  I am not saying that entry level candidates can not get the salary they want or ask for.  I am not saying that people can't ask for more money when  they leave.  

 

You half way agreed with my analysis by saying people "should" ask for more money when looking for a new job.  Should tells me that you think people are entitled.  I am not saying that is right or wrong.  I am simply saying that asking for more money eventually drives up salary parity and everyone is getting around that amount.  Thus increasing companies largest expense, salary costs.  You don't think Dell’s move had anything to do with that?

It is our fault my friend.  We caused the society in which companies feel that they can cut costs elsewhere, and they can.  AND, we let it happen.  I am sorry you do not agree and I know there are other factors, but if you break it down, it is our fault.  If not, I would be very curious whose fault it is.

If you have a business, 2 candidates, same skill set.  One costs you $30k, one costs $50k.  Which one do you take??  Benefit minus Costs equal value.  Unfortunately, the answer use to be we have more talent.  We can not use that excuse much longer.

I apologize if you found my posting abrasive.  I guess at the end of the day, my point is simply we need to get more competitive in America because we are losing our swagger.  It kills me because I do love this country.

Morgan Hoogvelt said:

Upon first reading the couple sentences of this post I thought it was going to be on point, however when I got to the part of the paragraph when you quoted asking salaries - now I can say you are way off point and are focusing on only a micro-view of things. 

First off, in recruiting we want to get our candidates more money - hell, all job seekers on their own should want more money.  Have you not looked around and do you not see that the majority of American workers are underpaid and over worked?

And way to blast the American worker as it is our fault our jobs are being outsourced.  Did you not put one thought into this whole scenario?  People move and leave because there is no job security.  Gone are the days where you can put in your time, hard work and loyalty and get repaid in the end with benefits and a retirement paycheck.  But a company, such as Dell, will not hesitate to close an entire plant down and ship all jobs to Mexico to save a few pennies on each unit produced.  You ever read that case study?

As for new grads, our corporate society requires education, everyone wants at least a Bachelors degree in the majority of jobs.  Congrats, you have your degree - what's that?  You are in the hole $50k which the govt is kind enough to let you pay back over the next 50 years.  Oh and by the way, here is your starting salary - $30k. 

In case you didn't realize this, workers in the 70's were already making $7.50/hr + benefits.  Now in those same exact position today, they are making $7.25/hr with no benefits, how the hell does this make sense?  And it’s not a sense of entitlement, it’s a sense of putting in the hard work and hours to get educated and to get paid for your work, knowledge and expertise.  Probably the same reasons why you are in recruiting, because the money is good. 

I'd say next time you get an idea to write a post like this, unless you are trying to start controversy, to do your research and make sure you have solid talking points.  As a recruiter you should know that even the unemployed people have to maintain a proper resume and career path going forward.  It's not that Americans won't stoop to taking a lower job, its that we cannot afford to.  

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