August 30-31, 2008 Second ever midnight chat on RBC! Best Night Line:
“This is fun...”
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Maureen Yes, it is. This RBC is a very active community with alot going on! Even in the middle of the night!
April SallyR where in Hawaii?
Sammee 'night all!
SallyR Is anyone staying online?
Bill Josephson Good group Thank you!
Maureen Thank you for attending the MagicMethod MidnightMoves chat tonight - I appreciate it!
Bill Josephson Thank you for sitting up with us.......if I can stay awake again I will
Maureen We have SO MUCH to discuss!
Sammee Thanks Maureen, these are always entertaining!
Maureen Will you all come back next week?
Bill Josephson It was excellent
Maureen This chat is one hour -THIS hour WENT FAST!
SallyR @Maureen...how long is this chat? You must be sleepy?
Maureen We didn't get too far into phone banks - we'll pick this up next Saturday again.
Sammee It's only midnight here
Bill Josephson Sally......I always prefer to work on my own
Maureen Yikes- it's 1am already!
Bill Josephson I don't really use linkedin...except I accept all invitations
Tell me about it Sammee!
Sammee Maureen, I know...how hard is that????
Maureen ...or maybe it does.
Sammee Sorry for the poor grammar, by the way.
SallyR @Bill...I'm a lone wolf unless I'm working with other recruiters for their positions
Maureen Sally, because they can "find them" on LinkedIn themselves - never mind the fact - and you won't believe this - some of them won't know how to "find them" beyond that if the person does not have an email or phone number listed... I ROFLMAO when I realized that - I mean - it doesn't take a brain surgeon to find a company's number and then call...
Sammee The thing I run into, is I do call into companies and direct headhunting, and I find someone who's on Monster or LI. Not always, but it has happened.
Bill Josephson Maureen......I work lone wolf. I rarely speak with other recruiters unless it’s my client company's
Maureen I'm not crazy about that request as I generally try to limit LI results (or any Internet results) to 10% or so of my search results - it's hard to avoid them these days! And it’s a pain in the you-know-what again to cross-check them! Except that when I do, I sometimes get corrected spellings…
SallyR @maureen Why is that?
Maureen Usually they do have them (Internet recruiters) these days Bill. In fact, I'm encountering requests NOT to bring in anyone off LinkedIn from my customers...
Sammee SallyR, LOL
Bill Josephson Maureen.......that's the winning approach
Maureen Once I identify that, I dial one number after another, keeping notes along the way who is where. When I have a good number, I use them on the morrow when I "stab in".
SallyR @ Sammee
Bill Josephson My clients, that is
Bill Josephson My companies have internet recruiters...anyone I find on the Web I assume my company already has
Maureen April, I find the company’s internal dialing system. Sometimes, it will be extensions beyond the main number. Sometimes the company will use different prefixes, especially if it's a large org.
Sammee I'm exceptionally good at acting befuzzled.
SallyR This is fun! Thanks Maureen!
Bill Josephson LOL
Maureen Admit your mistakes- it makes life sweeter.
Sammee SallyR, now you've got my mind working!
Maureen No Sammee, I say, "I know I'm in the wrong department - I was trying to reach R&D - can you direct me?"
Bill Josephson What you just said about getting internal dials and then calling directly
Sammee Maureen, then do you say something along the lines, of "Oops, I was looking for ______ and got misdirected"?
April How do you figure out the extensions?
Maureen About? Weaponry?
Bill Josephson Maureen....you are exactly correct
Maureen It's a very, very effective weapon.
SallyR @Sammee..I have a joke about that..but it's not for here...oh well
Maureen "Stabbing in" - calling in directly to the company's employees using their internal dialing system. Every company has one - every employee usually has a desk with a phone - and it's that technology I am speaking of here - calling those employees at their desks DIRECTLY, avoiding going through the Gatekeeper altogether.
Sammee SallyR Sometimes...we joke that even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then!
SallyR @ Sammeee You're lucky
April Hi,all. Maureen..."stabbing in"?
Maureen It IS an excellent approach!
Bill Josephson Maureen.....that sounds like an excellent approach
Sammee Actually I partner with a recruiter who's had quite a bit of success with internet sourcing.
Maureen Bill, what I would do (and do do) in defense or at companies whose phone directory is not easily accessed is to find the internal dial system, and then I just start dialing for dollars. Area code, prefix, extension. One after another, in order numerically. Writing the names down as I go and then, on the morrow, call those names directly using the "stabbing in" approach - usually by the fifth stab that answers I have the information that I need!
Bill Josephson Sammee.....I feel as though every company and recruiter already knows the person
Sammee Bill, why does internet sourcing make you nervous?
Bill Josephson Maureen, yes. They don't offer directory assistance--just names through name recognition
Maureen I see - Bill. Yes, I've encountered that in defense - it's another reason defense is so hard - - that said the name recognition stuff is a pain in the you-know-what!
Bill Josephson Internet sourcing would make me nervous
SallyR Yes.... Some stuff on the internet are old info
Maureen Sally, you just started sourcing names off the Internet and then attempting to run them down?
Sammee I need to do some mining, then.
Maureen Very detailed Sammee. They usually list juts about everyone in the office in their phone directories.
SallyR I don't know since I just started doing that
Sammee How detailed do they usually get in the phone directory?
Maureen Oh, you mean "say the name"?
Bill Josephson Maureen...a canned voice will say if you know the name of the person please say it now. If I mention a name they'll connect me to someone who's close
Maureen Explain Bill.
Maureen Sally - did you answer - what % of name soyu find on the Internet are "still there" when you call?
Bill Josephson Maureen....I usually don't get that in the phone package .....I do get chances for name recognition
Maureen Everyone remembers that right? From calling repeatedly into companies trying to locate people?
SallyR This is fun...
Sammee Not only that, they respect you more if you do that...and there is more possibility down the line...
Bill Josephson Sammee...correct. You must know when to walk away and do so, or they break your heart later on
Sammee Maureen - sadly, not so much!
Maureen A phone bank is a company's listing of names found in their answering service...you know how when you call it will tell you, "For our employee directory, press ...9” (or 6 or 4 - it just depends) and once you do you’re invited to locate people inside the company by spelling their names?
Sammee Bill, I agree...and it's a differentiator when you walk away from people you can't help.
Bill Josephson What are they?
Maureen Do you ever do them?
Bill Josephson Tell me about phone banks
Maureen Butterfly valve designer- you're finding THOSE on the Internet?
SallyR @Sammee...not yet
Bill Josephson I believe the skill in our job is to decipher as fast as possible whether we can provide a useful service to the person or not--do they have incentive to want our services, or not
Maureen We were s’posed to talk about how to do phone banks in here tonight - everyone know what I mean?
Maureen Let's move on - Sally's head looks like it might be hurting from all that wall banging...
Sammee SallyR...oh dear...I've so been there!!! Don't have a butterfly valve designer in your back pocket, do you???
SallyR Or I feel like I can cry
Maureen Sally - that's funny!
Maureen LOL Sammee!
SallyR Banging head on wall emoticon
Maureen Yes? You do agree or don't agree?
Sammee That too, Maureen!
SallyR Yes....that's why I like it when candidates come to me
Maureen Or...a game of numbers quantified by skill...
Maureen So Sally, you don't agree that Internet names might be more difficult to approach because they're likely to have been approached before, repeatedly?
Sammee I heard something I like better...It's a game of skill that's quantified by numbers.
Bill Josephson The trick in this business is not to overcome every objection to be a killer salesman--but to get to the truth as fast as possible with each phone call determining your prospects and weeding out your suspects
SallyR I do splits..
SallyR When you call companies..its still a number game too
Sammee Sometimes they do...but I always say that I'm keeping that confidential, just as I would keep it confidential if they referred me to someone.
Maureen ”depending if I'm help other recruiters out” - what do you mean Sally?
Maureen It sure is. I tell people that ALL THE TIME. This is a numbers game.
SallyR most industries..depending if I'm help other recruiters out
Bill Josephson Maureen, yes.......I know my stats. It's really a numbers game as much as people want you to sometimes think otherwise.
Maureen Do they ask who Sammee?
Sammee Hi all. I tell people that I was referred to them by someone in the industry.
Maureen Any industry in particular Sally?
Maureen Very, very good Bill! You know that though, right?
SallyR Yes.since they don't know me.....
Maureen Sally, then what do they say? Are they surprised?
Bill Josephson Sally, I'm enticing them by telling them they have a tremendous opportunity to compare another situation with their present one...that they have everything to gain as they either have a job they presently like or a new position
SallyR Then I tell them that I was researching and their name came up
Maureen What do you say?
SallyR How did you get my name? yes. I get that question too
Bill Josephson Yes, I'd say if I actually speak with 50-60 people and can receive 8 resumes, one will likely result in a hire
Maureen And, Bill, out of those 6-8 resumes, you usually can make a hire?
Maureen Sally, you get what ?
Maureen So out of an average of 130 phone sourced names in the defense sector, you get 6-8 quality resumes. I'd say you're working wonders!
Maureen Good answer Bill!
Bill Josephson Yes.......I tell them it's my job to find them cause they're not looking to be found
Bill Josephson 100 sourced, leads to 30 conversations, leads to 4 resumes......so around 125-135 sourced names for a hire
Maureen Sally, when you phone source, and then call THOSE phone sourced names, chances are you're calling peeps WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN CALLED BEFORE about other opportunities! This is one of the best reasons to learn phone sourcing - so you're able to access those "fresh" names... In fact, it's one of the things I often hear from people when I profile - "How'd you get my name?" they ask, rather wonderingly. Or, "I'm not looking for a job!" I welcome both questions!
SallyR And that why I like it when candidate call me.....at least I have something to talk to them about
Bill Josephson 125-135
Maureen To get those 6-8- quality resumes how many people do you have to phone source?
Bill Josephson So it's hard in my space to get candidates and interviews, but when I do one of two interviewed will receive an offer
Maureen Oh I see Sally. Here's one thing you're up against - BECAUSE these people are "findable" on the internet - usually you're not the first recruiting person to call them - especially for people in highly sought industries/positions - do you understand this? It's one reason your reception may have been cool in the past - they're worn out by recruiters calling!
Bill Josephson But then the company will make an offer to one out of every two candidates I send
SallyR I guess it's my training..I've always called companies & I don't mind the rejections from companies
Bill Josephson It's hard for me to find candidates willing to make a change. I may need 125-135 quality resumes to get an interview with the company as they're selective
Maureen So you feel tongue tied Sally w/out a resume in front of you,
Bill Josephson It's hard for me to find candidates willing to make a change. I may need 6-8 quality resumes to get an interview with the company as they're selective
SallyR It's like I feeling like..I don't know how to speak since I don't have any info in front of me...like looking at their resumes
Maureen How so?
Bill Josephson In my space it's different with hiring
Maureen What do you mean Sally: "hmmmm then...I'm sorry I got the wrong number feeling"
SallyR Hey Bill..I get those sometimes....with other recruiters I help out
Maureen Do you think it would be out of line to say you need 200 phone sourced names to effect ONE IMMEDIATE HIRE? That's about where I tag it for defense...far beyond the normal of 30-50 that's usually needed in other industries!
SallyR I do most industries..depending if I'm helping other recruiters with their positions
Bill Josephson Maureen...yes, we did
Maureen Didn't we just talk abt this on Thursday Bill in the noon MM chat? YES you have one of the hardest spaces to source/recruit in!
SallyR Yes..then I get to the person...hmmmm then...I'm sorry I got the wrong number feeling
Maureen Big OH.
Bill Josephson But this was a problem in Information Technology as well
Bill Josephson Defense Engineering
Bill Josephson Maureen.....I get that all the time, correct.
Maureen What space you recruit in Bill?
SallyR Bill has more experience than me
Maureen What percentage of the time is the person "still there"?
Maureen So she usually transfers you Sally IF that person is "still there" - right?
Bill Josephson If I'm recruiting and sourcing, all it takes is one of my attempts to be leaked to the person's boss and the boss then either tells HR or sends an email to all their staff to not speak with me
Maureen Some Gatekeepers are Bill - you know what? When she tells you she doesn't have titles there at the front desk - she's usually lying - you get this right?
SallyR I ask for the name that I found from the internet --
Bill Josephson Maureen, I agree. Far better to get the names in your planning and call them the next day
Maureen It sounds Bill, you need to learn some "technique" so they don't know you've been calling! You're losing your element of surprise when you reveal yourself...
SallyR I agree with Bill
Bill Josephson I believe gatekeepers are told to not divulge names--they're much more savvy today than in the past, IMO
Maureen Sally - what/who are you asking?
Maureen That's one reason Bill, I recommend you do your sourcing first - recruiting second. Finish the sourcing so you've captured all the names and then go at them FAST and FURIOUS - in one day if possible!
SallyR Some gatekeepers are protective
SallyR Why would they do that if they don't know you?
Bill Josephson So my cover can be quickly blown if one employee leaks I've been calling to their boss
Maureen No, Sally, I'm trying to get info - including names. I am trying to build, as quickly as possible, as gracefully as possible so as not to alarm her - as much abt the org I need to penetrate as possible - I want her to tell me names, admin names, extension numbers or direct dials, "other" people in the dept, I don't care that she doesn't give me "titles" at this point - what I want are NAMES - I'll figger the rest out later
Maureen Maybe they have something to be paranoid ABOUT. Maybe, just maybe, they should be looking inward at their own employee policies and not outward...
Bill Josephson And often the word gets around fast to the department I'm trying to recruit from a recruiter is trying to penetrate. They email all the staff in that department so they're ready for me Then I'd recruit and the person will say they know I've been calling, and aren't authorized to speak with me
SallyR So you're trying to get a referral then?
Maureen In the old days she'd list them all?
Bill Josephson I believe companies are quite paranoid
Maureen I use that name in a cat's paw fashion to extract other info... Connie Hampton taught me this expression.
Maureen Usually Sally. But that's not usually what I want to do - speak to the person - I want to use the name I have to get other names...
SallyR with the talent shortage.....
Bill Josephson Maureen, I'd ask the receptionist for the names of General Accountants....that I spoke with one and couldn't remember their name. She'd list them all
Maureen So both of you think companies are paranoid?
SallyR If you have a name....don't they let you speak to the person?
Bill Josephson Companies seem more savvy than they once were
Maureen How did you do it in 1980 Bill?
Bill Josephson Sally...they indeed are. I'm often told by the recptionist I won't be put through anywhere without a name
Maureen Late 90 's? Hmmm... that would include most of my phone sourcing career, started in 96-97. I don’t think I ever really asked for depts - but I think there are some depts you can still ask for by name and get to...AR for one... Quality - I rarely have trouble when I ask for "Quality" - don't really know why.
SallyR I think that some companies are afraid that you're stealing their employees
Bill Josephson Makes me glad I'm not a rookie recruiter/sourcer today
Bill Josephson When I first began in 1980 it was easy to navigate a company to find who you wanted
SallyR Perhap I have to pretend the candidates are clients, too.
Maureen Let's see what we can do to take somea' that fear away Sally...
Bill Josephson Maureen....since the late 90's......getting much tougher to penetrate companies without a name
Maureen When did you notice a sea change Bill?
SallyR Well...it's scary...
Maureen Funny Sally!
Maureen I see - the high stuff, Sally, you find on company websites - sometime, if you read the press releases you'll find a little more- not much but maybe a little - Product Marketing stuff mostly...
Gopi Hi Bill
SallyR Oh yeah – cold sweat emoticon
Gopi Is it Shally Steckerl there?
Bill Josephson Hi Gopi
Gopi Hi everybody
Maureen So Sally, you're okay if you're calling a candidate who has contacted you in one way or another - but callng a company and asking a Gatekeeper for names is something that sets you into a cold sweat?
Bill Josephson It's very hard now to get into a company without a name, Used to be able to ask for departments
Gopi Hi Maureen
SallyR Depending on the positions. like director, VPs presidents
Maureen That was remarked on too...that today it's problematic (to say the least!)
SallyR I don't have any problem if I find resume in that's posted but cold calling..it's hard.
Bill Josephson Companies in the late 90s started only having online directories, then it became harder to get them from candidates
Maureen Sally, what kind of names do you find on the targeted company's website?
Bill Josephson Maureen, I use to get lots of directories up till companies started only had online directories
Maureen at the outset...put some "mystery" carrot into the process...
SallyR I use resume search sometimes...
Maureen Bill, I read something not long ago here on the networks - a guy said (talking about directories) that he told his potential placements one thing at the beginning of their relationship - that once the person was placed - he was going to ask for ONE FAVOR from that person - and when the time came he asked that person for the former company's directory - I guess the same technique could be true to ask for referrals...
SallyR and the targeted companies websites
Maureen Any particular place on the Internet Sally?
SallyR Internet search
Bill Josephson Usually people I'm trying to recruit I'm then trying to network through
SallyR Some of the info are old...
Maureen Where do you find the names Sally?
SallyR Sometime I can find the names but finding where they are currently at
Maureen Who in the org do you usually try to get names from? In other words, is there someone you approach first?
Bill Josephson Trying to get names from people is the hardest
Maureen Bill, what's nerve racking about it?
SallyR I don't really follow a script. I just see how the clients acts
Bill Josephson Maureen...I do
Bill Josephson Maureen, yes....there are a few ways
Maureen Bill - do you phone source?
Bill Josephson Sourcing is nerve racking....recruiting, you just follow a script
Maureen Bill I thought maybe you’re talking about using the phone to get names and sometimes numbers- you know how to do that?
SallyR I'm used to calling companies not cold call candidates...I call candidates if they send me their resumes
Maureen It takes ALOT of practice - many people don't get this. I mean - alot of practice!
SallyR Like I'm not good at it yet
Bill Josephson Using technology to get names/numbers
SallyR Internet search...then I'm kinda shy about calling candidates..I don't have any problem when companies says no to me..
Maureen Welcome to the MagicMethod Midnight Hour - we're going to be talking tonight about things you can do with the telephone in the middle of the night! Who's all here?
Midnight – Chat officially starts
Maureen Sally and Bill, how do you source?
Maureen I think recruiting would be much harder - though, let me say this front and center...I've never done it!
SallyR Maybe because I don't really do what you do...u know the unknown
Bill Josephson Of my sourcing and recruiting sourcing is much harder
Maureen You think so? I don't!
SallyR I think you your job is hard...harder than recruiting
Maureen Cool - thanks!
Bill Josephson Hi Maureen
SallyR Honolulu Hawaii..I have read your blogs on ERE for years
Maureen Sally, did you read last week's chat log
Bill Josephson I'm here
Maureen Where are you?
SallyR It's about 5:54pm here
Maureen Were you here last week?
Maureen Jus' about - I woke up at w/ a start!
SallyR wow...it's midnight?
Maureen Glad you could make it tonight!
SallyR I am so glad you're not part of the stuff in the digging into...
SallyR I was reading the world makes a path...
Warm –Up – this conversation started about fifteen minutes or so before class started.