Ageism - Recruiters, Are You Just Being Politically Correct?

This topic can be quite a minefield and a conversation that may need to be looked at from many different angles. In the UK age discrimination has been unlawful in employment, training and education since October 2006. In the recruitment world in the UK there are strict rules in relation to posting job adverts, collecting resumes and obtaining information from candidates that contain data reflecting their age.

Are their similar rules or laws in the USA and other countries? How far has your government gone or governing body to stop ageism in the workplace?

Now what I am looking for here is comments and responses relating to you being honest, this is a blog post for honesty and not just the 'Politically Correct' answers. Here some questions to put some meat on the bone:

Do you really agree with ruling out Ageism in the work place?
What obstacles have you come across in recruitment which relate to an individuals age?
Have you ever been accused of being ageist and what was the outcome?
Have you been in a situation when ageism was against someone because they were too young?
Do you honestly think older people are more wiser and better groomed for the working world?
If a client asks you how old a candidate is, what do you reply, how do you deal with this?
Removing dates of education on a resume is a step too far don't you think? But the dates do give away the persons age!

I am going to sit on the fence on this one, the jury's out for me and I am really undecided. With more candidates and less jobs currently it would be a tough call to choose between a 30 year old Oxford educated individual and a 58 year old person with 35 years worth of commercial experience. Is it fair to discriminate when it comes to age. If you are, lets say over 50, how would you feel up against a 27 year old for the same position?

What are the right answers here?? This is a tough one.... Let's debate.

Comment by Paul Hanchett on July 29, 2010 at 8:14pm: Well, I see your point Doug!

Comment by Sandra McCartt on July 29, 2010 at 9:07pm: The second rule of discussion and debate is never infer that if anyone doesn't agree with your point of view they are immoral or likened to a Nazi, a serial killer or any other infamous figure. Unless of course you are off your meds and think you are God or a tuna.

Comment by Paul Hanchett on July 29, 2010 at 9:16pm: I'm sorry? Just where did I liken anyone to a Nazi or call them immoral? I said:

> I wonder, if you give in to it don't you become part of the problem? In Nazi Germany
> many atrocities were quietly allowed because "I really can't do anything about it"...

No accusations, just a pretty standard philosophical question. I apologize if your feelings were hurt or you felt criticized, that clearly was not my intent! :(

Comment by Sandra McCartt on July 30, 2010 at 12:14am: "Discrimination that is not based on the individual's real (not presumed) ability to perform the job is morally wrong, regardless of whether or not it is legally prosecutable." Thank you the 11th commandment. Since not even our over zealous government agencies can't figure out how to prove it's legally prosecutable it must therefore be immoral. Unfair maybe, deplorable, discriminatory probably but really! If it's immoral to you then follow your moral code and ignore the things that make a person fit on a team where they can be productive. Slam that puppy in there because it's "morally" right then wait for the fall out all the way around.

Again, don't pontificate your moral template on anyone else. Just exactly who does anyone think they are to make a moral judgement as to hiring practices. Try telling your boss/client that since he/she didn't hire a candidate that he didn't think would fit well on the team that he has just acted in an immoral manner and if he gives into the pressure to find a team fit by not hiring an older candidate, he is quietly allowing the same thing as the atrocities that were quietly commited in Nazi Germany. Write when you find work, don't be surprised if you hear "click" on the phone and you never hear from that client again or be sure your medical insurance is paid up cause you may get popped in the mouth.

My feelers were not hurt nor did i feel criticized that is both patronizing and assumptive. That kind of snakey question equates anyone who has commented that they indeed follow clients requests (that you may perceive to be immoral) to Nazi Germany. It just pisses me off because in my opinion it's not a standard philosophical question, in my opinion it's a dark reference and an offensive ,judgemental analogy that has no place in a discussion of a hiring practice. We're talking about hiring discrimination not mass murder and torture ,it won't equate to many people and in my opinion it's warped thinking.

Judi states that she finds herself sending what her client wants, you state that doing so is immoral and wondering if that is the same thing as Nazi Germany, ergo you have just opined that Judi is immoral and behaving like Nazi Germany. Communication is a wonderful thing particularly when it's written.

Example: I wonder, do you beat your wife as much as you used to? Ted Bundy was charming at cocktail parties and apologized a lot, it was clearly not his intent to offend anyone. Those are two of those "standard philosophical questions" /statements that are loaded to the hilt and are certainly offensive.

As Doug stated in no uncertain terms. Leave Nazi out of any business or social discussion unless the discussion relates to Nazi Germany or the holocaust or you can count on pissing off or offending the majority of people, "sending things off the rails. No exceptions".

"I apologize If" is always pretty funny to me.

Comment by Mark Lennard on July 30, 2010 at 12:15pm: Hey Sandra, as you know from our, one mench to another chat the other day, I'm on vacation in Turkey and just logged on to see how my 'serious' debate about Ageism is going and you have had me in hysterics darling.... Only you could bring Viagra into such a debate with such style and class....
I can always rely on you to liven up the party and it seems you most certainly have recently, keep well ;-)

Comment by Sandra McCartt on July 30, 2010 at 12:29pm: Dear Mench,

Who the hell goes on vacation to Turkey? I don't think one can get there from Texas or would want to but my idea of travel is 20 miles to the country to feed horses everyday.

See what happens when you don't moderate comments:) All hell breaks loose.

After all the comments and questions, Does anybody have the "final solution" to the problem of the older candidate being shunned like a leper?

Comment by Mark Lennard on July 30, 2010 at 12:40pm: I never expected there to be a solution. The human being to a degree has ageism built in, its a natural occurrence in mankind.. Would a Young Man of 20 be attracted to an older woman of 80? Its part of society. Ageism in the work place is not right but do we accept that it happens and try our best to stop it... My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is that Ageism will always exist, we will never remove it but we can make sure we are aware of it.

Now with regards to Turkey, I will not be coming back.. It was 'The' place to go for us Brits this year but its definitely NOT for me... Florida or NYC seems so much more appealing....

And yes, look what's gone and happened all because you said.... "Mark, Lets converse, lets not Moderate"... I blame you McCartt... ;-)

Comment by Karen Kerr on July 30, 2010 at 1:34pm: Do you really agree with ruling out Ageism in the work place? Yes.
What obstacles have you come across in recruitment which relate to an individuals age? I sometimes hear "we are looking for a new college grad," or "we think someone younger would fit in better." It's insidious, because if someone older loses their job through no fault of their own, they have a very rough time. On the flip side, their are those who are older that wallow in that and don't keep themselves or their skills up.
Have you ever been accused of being ageist and what was the outcome? No
Have you been in a situation when ageism was against someone because they were too young? No
Do you honestly think older people are more wiser and better groomed for the working world? Not necessarily.
If a client asks you how old a candidate is, what do you reply, how do you deal with this? I try to say, gently and jokingly, that "I like to pretend Mike Wallace is on the phone and this call is being recorded when I get questions like this" and then try to educate them about a particular person.
Removing dates of education on a resume is a step too far don't you think? But the dates do give away the persons age! That's not as big of a deal in the US I guess. I see that all of the time and don't even notice. But then, I'm older......

Comment by Doug Boswell on July 30, 2010 at 2:47pm: Actually... considering our recent experiences here with Nazi references, I'm sure the temptation to use the phrase "final solution" was just too hard to resist. But considering it might conjure up some extreme and unpleasant courses of action to the practitioners of age discrimination, a better phrase might be, does anybody have a "path to enlightenment" for those companies shunning older candidates as though they were lepers? Well, a blogger named Don Straits may have such a path, which would benefit both the company and the older employee.

His blog, which I try to keep up on, has had a few topics lately that chew around the edges of the ageism-in-employment phenomenon. Don Straits focuses mainly on senior executive employment issues, so on July 25th he posted about candidates being turned down due to being "overqualified". IMO, it's a typical alternative to what is often meant, which is, "you're too frickin' old, you geezer". Anyway, Don sites his own long term research and experience, lists the myths and presents the truths for each. He then addresses the underlying problem and maps out a course of action that corporations can take to solve the problems that this phenomenon creates for them. I'd paste it in here, but you may want to read some of his other posts also. Here is the link http://www.donstraits.com/.

His lead in is especially humorous, so I will past it here. Unfortunately, for our non-USA readers, the reference to the cartoon strip "The Wizard of Id" may not be something you are familiar with, but we Americans know that particular character as an old white-bearded wizard, so it makes for a great visual when you look at this in the context of age discrimination.

"We Can't Hire You. You're Overqualified!"
By Don Straits , Sunday, July 25, 2010 at 7:26PM

One of my favorite cartoon characters is The Wizard of Id. A few years ago I read one of the Wizard’s cartoon strips and it made such a profound impression I cut it out and saved it. Darn! I have misplaced it over the years. However, I can remember the script almost word for word verbatim.

After completing an interview for a job, the Wizard is standing in front of the HR manager. The HR manager says: “We can’t hire you. You’re over qualified.” The Wizard, looking very perplexed, responds: “Just give me the job and I promise to act as stupid as all the rest of you.”

OK, now please read the rest of it. The link again is http://www.donstraits.com/. Comments?

Comment by Sandra McCartt on July 30, 2010 at 2:56pm: It was snarky and i simply could not resist. Path to Enlightment does have a more progressive feel to it.

Interesting blog reference and a good one. Thanks for sharing.

Comment