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Permalink Reply by Sandra McCartt on October 21, 2011 at 6:59pm

Call the HR person and see if they will give you anything.  I would also all the ex boss.  I would ask him if he could give you anything that you could say to a prosepective employer to help her find another position.  Point blank tell him that without some kind of reason even if it was a personality conflict with someone she is going to be destroyed by not having any kind of reason albeit they don't have to give one, what if anything could he tell you in confidence.

If you can't get anything all you can do is tell it like it is.  They didn't tell her, won't tell her but the reference from her previous employer is stellar so who knows maybe it was political.  This sounds like something of a personal nature.  Get her in your office and dig some more with her.  Was there someone who was after her for some reason.  I find when i really dig with a candidate they can think of things that happened that seemed small to them but may have been the reason.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Spagnola on October 21, 2011 at 7:56pm

I think Sandra it this one dead on. I have always played the help card in this situation by going to HR and/or Ex-Boss and ask them directly for help so that I can in turn help this individual out. Head down the entire time huh? Good luck Bill - hopefully you can find not only a better fit, but better deal all the way around.

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Permalink Reply by Bill Schultz on October 21, 2011 at 8:04pm

thanks, sandra- i told her to call the hr person and tell her she needs a reason- otherwise, she'll need to consult a professional.  it's not time for me to step into the situation unless my client wants to know  i asked her if she was sleeping with anyone or caught anyone in a compromising situation, but that was a negative.  

Sandra McCartt said:

Call the HR person and see if they will give you anything.  I would also all the ex boss.  I would ask him if he could give you anything that you could say to a prosepective employer to help her find another position.  Point blank tell him that without some kind of reason even if it was a personality conflict with someone she is going to be destroyed by not having any kind of reason albeit they don't have to give one, what if anything could he tell you in confidence.

If you can't get anything all you can do is tell it like it is.  They didn't tell her, won't tell her but the reference from her previous employer is stellar so who knows maybe it was political.  This sounds like something of a personal nature.  Get her in your office and dig some more with her.  Was there someone who was after her for some reason.  I find when i really dig with a candidate they can think of things that happened that seemed small to them but may have been the reason.

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Permalink Reply by Sandra McCartt on October 22, 2011 at 12:41pm

Bill, it's my understanding that in a right to work state there doesn't have to be a reason. I know California is very employee friendly so may be different there. It might be better for your candidate to speak with an attorney first to find out what her rights are before she threatens HR. Normally when a terminated employee starts making threats about "a professional" HR clams up, will nicely tell her she certainly has that option and to have her representative contact legal. It sometimes plays better to find out, then call HR, say that she understands she has a right to know something, if that is correct, what can they tell her. She is not interested in causing any problem, just wants to be honest with a future employer.

The terminations I am familiar with in California required all kinds of documentation on the part of the employer. I would be surprised if the company didn't have something documented and approved by counsel before they terminated her. They didn't just wake up one morning and decide to throw her out the door. Could it be something she posted on the net, a pic or a comment? In that event they might say get rid of her and not say why because of all the nebulous lawsuits floating around about what employees can and cannot say. Have you checked to see what is floating around about her on the net?

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Permalink Reply by Bill Schultz on October 22, 2011 at 1:16pm

No but I checked out her boss, mr. Prick the CMO- the M stands for marketing which he misspelled twice in his profile.
It is At will employment but that does not mean you can fire someone for no cause. And the courts in San Francisco are very employee friendly.
I am not telling her to sue. I want them to agree on a reason for termination that will be referenceable. She is talented enough to not harp on this hiccup.

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Permalink Reply by Valentino Martinez on October 22, 2011 at 3:35pm

@B, you're on the right track...wanting to get "them to agree on a reason for termination that will be referenceable."  Without that info most hiring employers will pass--unless the candidate, in person and on paper (including online), impresses.

I found that a reasonable employer will hire ex-felons, "fired for cause" candidates and candidates you would think they would run away from.  I've placed all of these by simply telling their story in a candid, straight forward way.  I've found the more an employer knows about a questionable candidate the better their assessment of the risk-in-hiring decision will be.

Your employer, in this scenario, may relent and come forward with a reason for termination.  If not--if you intend to move forward in making her case without legal support, the first thing I'd do is to build her reference base.  In fact, checking her "work related" references may be key in gleaning why she was let go.  Even her most biased supporters will often confirm PLUS & MINUS factors that will help you make the case...or decide to walk away.  If she cannot come up with references (still living and reachable) from her most recent job, as well as others--that would be a RED flag.

 

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Permalink Reply by Bill Schultz on October 25, 2011 at 1:40pm

Here's what I got from her today:

We agreed upon the stance of reorganization within the marketing department and my position was eliminated. She said there are no req's to fill my position.

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Permalink Reply by Sandra McCartt on October 25, 2011 at 2:00pm

Ok fine that is the "official position".  Before i would rep her i would , as
Tino says, get at least one reference from a co-worker at her last company.  There has to be somebody who will at least confirm that they were surprised she was let go and is mystified as to what happened or make some comment about the situation in the department.  If no one is  willing then decide if you want to present her with the official and ad your own impression that it appears she had some kind of personality conflict there because other references are stellar.

 

When it's this quiet and they are willing to call it a reorg and hold off on refilling the position i think they wanted her gone badly and do not want to talk at all about why.  Perhaps she simply did not live up to their expectations so they feel it was a bad hire and don't want to take the heat. 

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Permalink Reply by Bill Schultz on October 25, 2011 at 2:07pm

Thanks, Sandra-solid advice as usual.   She actually was referred by someone that I value from her previous company.  

I will delve more if/when necessary.  My feeling on this is we are on contingency  and we should not do

retainer level background checks until offer is imminent.  I'm fine with this explanation for now.  

How is your deal going?

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Permalink Reply by Sandra McCartt on October 25, 2011 at 6:35pm

Mine died a slow lingering death.  Everytime i think i have been in this business long enogh that i have seen it all something else happens that catches me by surprise.  Candidate who was told the relo would be max a uhaul move and cash hiring bonus  of 5 to 8K came back asking for a relo packkage grossed up for tax that was equal to about 70K.  Uh, hell no , here is the offer 125K, uhaul and 5K bonus.  He comes back with, no way i need at least 10K and physical move and about the insurance.  Don't care if the whole company has to wait 90 days.  I can't do that.  Nope no way it is what it is.  Candidate says No can't do it, even if i only have to move 100 miles from where i am now, thank every body and sorry, can't do it. 

 

The Fat lady has sung.  Everybody notified and everybody deflated after a five month search.  Candidate sends an email last night.  "This is such a great job and great company i will take the offer they made me.  So knowing the answer this old girl sends his email on anyway.  Employer is bumfuzzled, conference call, what should we do.  My decision...Pass guys , he was told, ignored it, turned it down twice.  Maybe he got drunk last night and bumped his head but we don't need any yo yo's

Bottom line.  Down the porcelin after months of work becasue the candidate refused to listen to his recruiter and took the advice of some career consultant on line as to  it never hurts to ask.  and always negotiate.  Bad advice has been the ruin of many an opportunity.  Another casualty of the guru crowd.  I hate em'.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Spagnola on October 25, 2011 at 6:40pm

Damn Sandra - sorry to hear that this one went down the tubes. We were just talking about it yesterday in RBChat too. I feel that you giving the advice to pass was the right call. Many would not make it, but in the long run it will make the clients trust you that much more. I know it does not help now, but then again there is not much that will. On to the next one....

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Permalink Reply by Bill Schultz on October 25, 2011 at 6:56pm

Sorry to hear that, Sandra.  Well, you have a hot search to work on!  (sorry, I'm channeling Danny Cahill)

One thing, (and I I figure this would not have been a deal breaker) a 90 day wait on insurance is fairly archaic

(around here anyway)

and even if, there are certainly ways around it.  

 

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