Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Valentino Martinez on May 5, 2011 at 6:45pm

Hi Jason,

 

I was surprised this blog didn't get the attention it deserves and wondered why there was a lack of feedback.

 

Maybe it was lost in the shuffle of so many blogs so little time.  Maybe nobody responded to this blog post because it reminds some of how backwards, insulting and embarrassing this situation still is.  And other didn't respond because this situation continues to be backwards, insulting and embarrassing and needs adjustments RETROACTIVELY back to say 1942 when the Rosie the Riveters replaced men on the wartime assembly line and proved their value and worth by and beyond any measure of compensation worth based on responsibility and performance. 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Valentino Martinez on May 5, 2011 at 7:24pm

This photo ID is of my mother who traveled to California, from New Mexico, to work in the wartime factories as one of the many Rosie the Riveters.  Circa 1942-43.  My aunt accompanied my mom in supporting the war effort along with five their brothers...

On June 16, 1942 the New Mexico Albuquerque Journal had a front page article with photos entitled "GIVE FIVE SONS TO THEIR COUNTRY".  The photos are those of my grandparents, on my mother's side, and their five sons (my uncles-THE CHAVEZ BROTHERS) in military uniform, all in the service (Marines & Army) at the time--all fighting in airplanes, tanks and in the infantry in WWII.  

My uncles went into the service when the U.S. entered the War in 1941.  Except for one uncle who died in Italy, four of my uncles did return home.  Three of them were still living when I and three of my brothers entered the Marines and the Army during the Vietnam War.  My two eldest brothers went to the Marines; a younger brother and I entered the Army.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ineke Read on May 5, 2011 at 8:00pm

I think it's because women feel more uncomfortable about promoting themselves - we are taught that modesty is a good female trait. To other recruiters - (surely you have noticed this) women use "we" in interviews a lot more than men do. I think it's about not promoting what we are doing ("my work should speak for itself").

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sandra McCartt on May 5, 2011 at 10:26pm

I think it has to a lot to do with women stating that they have a problem with travel and overtime due to kids or husband not wanting them to work overtime or travel.  Women bawl in the office when they get upset.  Women think sexual harassment is anyone telling them they smell good or they look nice so they are waiting at HR to throw a fit about twice as much as men.  Women are catty, petty bitches to work with in an office.  Men may gossip as much as women but women are ten times as devious and destructive at throwing someone under the bus as men are.

 

I supervised an office full of women for years.  I would stick needles in my eyes before i would do it again.  High maintenance, whiney, petty, moody backstabbing bunch of "i have to leave early today because of blah, blah.  Always worried about what somebody else makes or how much work somebody else is or is not doing compared to them.  When i hired a team of guys it was a new world of get the job done no matter what it takes ,come early stay late .  Everytime i get a call about an office that is having problems with a manager i know within three minutes if the office manager is a woman or man.  If it's a woman the first thing said is that everybody bickers all the time and the manager gets too involved with all the petty crap.  If it's a man the first thing said is that everybody thinks they should make as much money as their manager and are always coming to the top to gripe about it.

 

When women start acting like functioning adults, ask what needs to be done and when and quit talking about babies and weddings and needing extra time off  and turning on the waterfall, they will be paid as much as men.  Not likely to happen anytime soon.  If you have ever worked in an office of any size you know exactly what i am talking about.  :)  I got to be a female, male chauvinist pig by working with a bunch of women.  Save me from ever having to live in a room full of cats ever again.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Deborah J. Boyd on May 6, 2011 at 10:33am

Men are expected to be assertive. Employers expect men to ask for new assignments, ask for a raise, threaten to quit, voice opinions even when they may be contradictory to the "boss". When these same attributes occur in a woman she is "out of line". So we still expect women to "bow" to male dominance. I have always thought that because women do so much of the work in a business that they do not get promoted because they can not be replaced.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Valentino Martinez on May 6, 2011 at 1:36pm

Sandra,

 

You always share wisdom, truth and insight into how things are...from experience and scar tissue.  I've been in a room full of cats, literally (did a photography project for Purina)--survived it...and know what you're saying.

 

Nevertheless, I am for equal and above equal pay for all who earn it.  My mom did her Rosie the Riveter stint during WWII, raised twelve hellions to maturity and success and could ride a horse as good or better than her five brothers--true cowboys of old on cattle drives from Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.  Like you, my mother and many, many others--there is a merit system that lets cream rise to the top.  Yet, there is also a system that ensures a Glass Ceiling and less than equal pay as well.

Sandra McCartt said:

I think it has to a lot to do with women stating that they have a problem with travel and overtime due to kids or husband not wanting them to work overtime or travel.  Women bawl in the office when they get upset.  Women think sexual harassment is anyone telling them they smell good or they look nice so they are waiting at HR to throw a fit about twice as much as men.  Women are catty, petty bitches to work with in an office.  Men may gossip as much as women but women are ten times as devious and destructive at throwing someone under the bus as men are.

 

I supervised an office full of women for years.  I would stick needles in my eyes before i would do it again.  High maintenance, whiney, petty, moody backstabbing bunch of "i have to leave early today because of blah, blah.  Always worried about what somebody else makes or how much work somebody else is or is not doing compared to them.  When i hired a team of guys it was a new world of get the job done no matter what it takes ,come early stay late .  Everytime i get a call about an office that is having problems with a manager i know within three minutes if the office manager is a woman or man.  If it's a woman the first thing said is that everybody bickers all the time and the manager gets too involved with all the petty crap.  If it's a man the first thing said is that everybody thinks they should make as much money as their manager and are always coming to the top to gripe about it.

 

When women start acting like functioning adults, ask what needs to be done and when and quit talking about babies and weddings and needing extra time off  and turning on the waterfall, they will be paid as much as men.  Not likely to happen anytime soon.  If you have ever worked in an office of any size you know exactly what i am talking about.  :)  I got to be a female, male chauvinist pig by working with a bunch of women.  Save me from ever having to live in a room full of cats ever again.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Thomas Patrick Chuna on May 6, 2011 at 7:37pm

Salary is negotiable.

Men tend to negotiate.

Women tend to buy things.

Women who ask for and can justify what they want to be paid do just fine. Or they find something else.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jason Monastra on May 9, 2011 at 9:04am

Thomas - interesting summary of statements.  To the point, yet generalistic in nature.  Do women just buy things?  I am certain men do the same, when is the last time a man negotiated at the grocery store or struck a deal at the gas pump?  Men buy just as much as women.

 

I think one of the largest issues in this subject matter is how it is perceived.  Not the actual action.  Men negotiate and they are being strong.  Women negotiate or take a hard line and they are called something else.  Is that fair?  Far be it from being fair, but it is the perception of the person being negotiated with.  Women knowing this and not wanting to come off in the wrong way openly do not push to hard in a concern that they might look bad.  Rather they accept the offer with little expectation for more, when they know they are being paid less.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jacqueline Bozorgi on May 9, 2011 at 12:36pm

That's easy- we didn't have the head start men did. It hasn't even been a hundred years that we have been allowed to vote. Don't worry, though, we're catching up ;)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jason Monastra on May 9, 2011 at 12:45pm

Interesting.....so a head start.  I believe coming to market first and other head starts do allow for a better negotiating position at the table.  But with the amount of activist movements and other equal opportunity laws - I do not think just more time will allow for a change.  There needs to be a significant cultural change - not only with me but also of women.  It takes more than simply knowing you can make the same or more than women, it takes women actually conducting the actions required to receive that pay.  There is a disconnect there between knowledge and "on the ground" actions taken by women during their negotiations.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Thomas Patrick Chuna on May 9, 2011 at 11:01pm

Jason, you missed the point.. gas pumps and grocery stores are silly examples.. think of things that really are negotiated, such as the price of a car..men tend to haggle, women tend to accept the "bottom line best price" and just sign on the dotted line...the reverse is also true.

 

Yes I am generalizing, but that's the idea..just pointing out that if one doesn't ask and argue for and justify, they don't get what they want.

 

I think fear of being called a b**ch is a cop out..people need to grow up and take responsibility for where they are at in life...I have known, placed, and coached plenty of women who negotiated for and got what they wanted and deserved..they didn't wait for the man to bestow anything, or for some paternalistic government do gooder to tip the scales in their favor..and they damn well didn't care what other people thought. If someone can't negotiate without being percieved as a b**ch, maybe their people skills need work.

 

Jason Monastra said:

Thomas - interesting summary of statements.  To the point, yet generalistic in nature.  Do women just buy things?  I am certain men do the same, when is the last time a man negotiated at the grocery store or struck a deal at the gas pump?  Men buy just as much as women.

 

I think one of the largest issues in this subject matter is how it is perceived.  Not the actual action.  Men negotiate and they are being strong.  Women negotiate or take a hard line and they are called something else.  Is that fair?  Far be it from being fair, but it is the perception of the person being negotiated with.  Women knowing this and not wanting to come off in the wrong way openly do not push to hard in a concern that they might look bad.  Rather they accept the offer with little expectation for more, when they know they are being paid less.

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion