Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Durbin on February 9, 2009 at 5:58pm

That 78% figure is a club, not a statistically useful number. It's used by women's studies programs to whip up a frenzy among young women who usually are attending college on the largesse of their parents.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/

"When women behave in the workplace as men do, the wage gap between them is small. June O'Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that among people ages 27 to 33 who have never had a child, women's earnings approach 98 percent of men's."

Lumping together genders and averaging the results is only useful in politics.

Compare salary by salary, individual by individual, and you see that the difference has very little to do with a "wage gap," and everything to do with personal choices. Now we can argue that woman shouldn't have to be penalized for being able to bear children and choosing to do so, but that's not the same as saying men and women are differently compensated on the basis of sex. They are differently compensated on the basis of their choice to have children. And if you think that's rough, try to be a man who stays home with their child and returns to the workplace after 3 or 4 years. Good luck buddy!

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Permalink Reply by Julia Stone on February 9, 2009 at 6:00pm

Yes, I am in and I am on the Susan Burns side of the issue, it is complicated. I must find facts though...
Steve loves the Tats.
Animal loves the Stats

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Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on February 9, 2009 at 6:03pm

Slouch loves the hats. Jason, are you happy now?
;)

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Permalink Reply by Jim Durbin on February 9, 2009 at 6:11pm

Susan,

1) I'd say the first thing we do is get rid of Pell Grants and Stafford loans. Throttle back this insane rush to get everyone a college degree, thus dumbing down the undergraduate experience.

2) Get high schools to focus on teaching the basics. Reading, writing, counting, speaking, civics.

3) Set up vocational schools and focus on training high school workers to become trained workers in six months.

4) Break the teacher's unions. Grind them into dust.

5) Sue a couple of companies that require college degrees for entry level workers. Due it on the basis of gender discrimination against men.

6) Separate the genders in from 7th-12th grades (allow local communities to create their own social events as they see fit) and school them in single-sex classes. Roadmap smart kids and allow them to progress faster if necessary.

7) Reform Title IX - there's no reason to require equal participation in women's sports if there isn't equal interest.

8) Use the current educational formulas to help low-income but bright kids to go to college.

9) Most of all, break the link that a college education is a necessity. A degree these days is a social statement, not a certification.

10) Also, tax the heck out of college endowments and cut non-teaching staff by 40%.

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Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on February 9, 2009 at 6:16pm

Jim, do you think separating genders would be a boon or a bias for men (boys)? For women (girls)?

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Permalink Reply by Susan Burns on February 9, 2009 at 6:16pm

A very ugly and imbalanced world ;-)

Steve Levy said:

Susan - and I'm being only slightly humorous here - but lower grad rates and lower enrollment plus lowering sperm counts might mean a future decrease in educated men with which to procreate. Dumber men plus stronger women equals...

Susan Burns said:

...men have become disadvantaged in the educational system, which is leading to lower graduation rates and lower college enrollment, which is increasing the percentage of women enrolled. However, studies show that women are still only compensated, on average, 78% of what men earn.

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Permalink Reply by Susan Burns on February 9, 2009 at 6:28pm

Wow - nothing personal but the picture I get of that future is not one of an innovative, creative, competitive and sustainable society. Yes, the educational system needs work and our high school and junior high school experiences in many instances are lacking. Some of that goes beyond the school system though. Ideally, people should have a choice to the type of educational experience they desire. While not all jobs/careers require a college degree there is a lot of value in investing in our future by challenging our minds and taking a broad based approach. There have certainly been successes like Bill Gates and others who have been wildly successful, but its the exception - not the rule. I don't disagree that the educational system could benefit from an overhaul, and in some instances that is slowly occurring. Having been involved with college recruitment and relations and organizations like SIFE, the value students derive from a collegial experience is still one, as a global community, we should value. Also, regarding college endowments - most of the biggies have been built up by male centric biz programs at ivy league schools. Endowments for Liberal Arts programs, that for decades focused predominantly on women, have been underfunded for some time - mainly because of the income disparity between men and women.

Just want to reiterate that I strongly believe in equality and it does not benefit us to be skewed too strongly to either gender. There are many careers, and many people who will do well without a college degree. With that said - I also strongly believe in an open, accessible, progressive educational system that supports a sustainable, peaceful global community.

Jim Durbin said:

Susan,

1) I'd say the first thing we do is get rid of Pell Grants and Stafford loans. Throttle back this insane rush to get everyone a college degree, thus dumbing down the undergraduate experience.

2) Get high schools to focus on teaching the basics. Reading, writing, counting, speaking, civics.

3) Set up vocational schools and focus on training high school workers to become trained workers in six months.

4) Break the teacher's unions. Grind them into dust.

5) Sue a couple of companies that require college degrees for entry level workers. Due it on the basis of gender discrimination against men.

6) Separate the genders in from 7th-12th grades (allow local communities to create their own social events as they see fit) and school them in single-sex classes. Roadmap smart kids and allow them to progress faster if necessary.

7) Reform Title IX - there's no reason to require equal participation in women's sports if there isn't equal interest.

8) Use the current educational formulas to help low-income but bright kids to go to college.

9) Most of all, break the link that a college education is a necessity. A degree these days is a social statement, not a certification.

10) Also, tax the heck out of college endowments and cut non-teaching staff by 40%.

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Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on February 10, 2009 at 8:03am

Steve Harvey, stand-up comedian and talk radio host, is the unlikely author of a bestselling relationship book. Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man debuted at the top of several bestseller rankings last week, include the advice list of the New York Times and the non-fiction list of the Wall Street Journal. He spoke to TIME's Belinda Luscombe about why his simple, pull-no-punches counsel is resonating with women. Read the interview here.

I identify the problems that women have with men and then I give them a solution. The content is so glaringly clear, and I think women appreciate it coming from a guy who has no ulterior motive and is just honestly talking to them. ~ Steve Harvey

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Permalink Reply by Joshua Letourneau on February 10, 2009 at 10:07am

Animal, I sent you this yesterday re: your call for assistance on Twitter, but here she goes again. Tom Peters spoke heavily on women as both better bosses (better salespeople as well), not to mention being the most underserved market in his work, "Re-Imagine". In the video linked here, he essentially debunks business school, which I can personally speak to.

Tell me why women make ~83% of ALL consumer purchases, yet the company's products they're buying have Executive Boards that are typically made up entirely men. Are you serious? How could this be? Oh, and what about 'Household Investment Decisions' being at 67% Whoa, Double Whoa, Triple Whoa. Think about that for a moment - who REALLY controls the purse strings in 2 of 3 households?

Some excerpts from his book, Re-Imagine, that may be strong fodder for your discussion include:

"• Women practice improvisation with much greater ease than men.

• Women are more self-determined and more trust-sensitive than men.

• Women appreciate and depend upon their intuition more than men do.

• Women, unlike men, focus naturally on empowerment (rather than on hierarchical "power").

• Women understand and develop relationships with greater facility than men.

Rant: We are not prepared ...

We acknowledge that a new, fluid world is emerging. But we retain our male-inspired, male-dominated hierarchies. We "reengineer." But our way of thinking, indeed our very vocabulary ("engineering"), continues to be male-inspired. We recognize women's "rights." But we ignore women's strengths. We value "toughness." But we fail to see that women's brand of toughness is far more "steely" than men's. We preach the value of a new kind of enterprise. But we neglect those who are perhaps most fit to lead it. Namely: Women."

Yes, I'm happy to be a man, but I'm a huge fan of Women for more ways than I can count. Maybe it's from being raised by a single-mother and growing up with 2 sisters? Maybe. Maybe it's just because I love Women. Ladies, I'm one of your biggest fans :) . . . and I'm not afraid to say it.

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Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on February 10, 2009 at 10:24am

Animal, here are some questions I'd like to see offered in tomorrow's radio show.
Do women experience inequality in the workplace?
Do women have themselves to blame for some of this?

“A Woman in Power”- An Oxymoron?

Is sexism a bigger problem in our society than racism?

Are men better negotiators than women?

Are Women Leaders – set up to fail? See this post.

Categories:
The Ball Buster
Does a woman need to act harshly to keep up with "the boys" and to get ahead in the workplace?
Do women need to work harder than men in the workplace? Or do men?
Is success a two edged sword for females?
Do women (or men) pay a higher price for success?

The Support System
Are women “expected” these days to have a career – are they exhorted to “have it all”?
Who benefits?
Who suffers?

The Weeping Willow
Does the “Pauline in Peril” routine work in the workplace?
Do women use their kids/doctor appointments, personal business, etc. as excuses to cut work? Do men?

The Spinster
Is she seen as Difficult? Lonely? Crazy? Gay?
Those interested in spinster issues should join this network - it's FABULOUS.

The Bombshell
Do women use sex to get ahead in the workplace?
Do men use sex as a weapon in the workplace?
Do women?

The Bitch Boss Male Dilemma
The Bitch Boss Female Dilemma
Do women respond differently to male bosses than they do to female bosses?
Do female bosses prefer male reports over females?
Do male bosses go easier on female reports than male reports?
Do male bosses like having female reports?
Do female bosses like having female reports?

The Culture
Do females sabotage other females? In the workplace? In daily life? Why?
Are women submissive to men in the workplace?
Does a man get promoted over a woman if he is considered to be a family’s breadwinner even though both have the same qualifications?

The Lilly Ledbetter Legislation
Are women still being paid less than men? How long will it take to stop?
Is it cheaper to keep her (on)?

Child Rearing
Is it important someone be home with the kids? Who? Does it matter?
Does a woman’s career get side-railed by childbearing?
Do men feel the same sense of responsibility as women for child rearing?
Are there differences in opinions about this between generations?

Pick one -pick two - pick five but pick some of them!
Anyone else have thorny questions they'd like to add to the list?

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Permalink Reply by Julia Stone on February 10, 2009 at 11:34am

sounds like you should have your own show too Maureen. Let Animal do some of the work himself for the show!

Maureen Sharib said:

Animal, here are some questions I'd like to see offered in tomorrow's radio show.
Do women experience inequality in the workplace?
Do women have themselves to blame for some of this?

“A Woman in Power”- An Oxymoron?

Is sexism a bigger problem in our society than racism?

Are men better negotiators than women?

Are Women Leaders – set up to fail? See this post.

Categories:
The Ball Buster
Does a woman need to act harshly to keep up with "the boys" and to get ahead in the workplace?
Do women need to work harder than men in the workplace? Or do men?
Is success a two edged sword for females?
Do women (or men) pay a higher price for success?

The Support System
Are women “expected” these days to have a career – are they exhorted to “have it all”?
Who benefits?
Who suffers?

The Weeping Willow
Does the “Pauline in Peril” routine work in the workplace?
Do women use their kids/doctor appointments, personal business, etc. as excuses to cut work? Do men?

The Spinster
Is she seen as Difficult? Lonely? Crazy? Gay?
Those interested in spinster issues should join this network - it's FABULOUS.

The Bombshell
Do women use sex to get ahead in the workplace?
Do men use sex as a weapon in the workplace?
Do women?

The Bitch Boss Male Dilemma
The Bitch Boss Female Dilemma
Do women respond differently to male bosses than they do to female bosses?
Do female bosses prefer male reports over females?
Do male bosses go easier on female reports than male reports?
Do male bosses like having female reports?
Do female bosses like having female reports?

The Culture
Do females sabotage other females? In the workplace? In daily life? Why?
Are women submissive to men in the workplace?
Does a man get promoted over a woman if he is considered to be a family’s breadwinner even though both have the same qualifications?

The Lilly Ledbetter Legislation
Are women still being paid less than men? How long will it take to stop?
Is it cheaper to keep her (on)?

Child Rearing
Is it important someone be home with the kids? Who? Does it matter?
Does a woman’s career get side-railed by childbearing?
Do men feel the same sense of responsibility as women for child rearing?
Are there differences in opinions about this between generations?

Pick one -pick two - pick five but pick some of them!
Anyone else have thorny questions they'd like to add to the list?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on February 10, 2009 at 11:38am

I do have my own show. TalkSourcing: the 1-1:30 pm segment after Animal's show - every other week. I'll be on tomorrow after Animal's show answering your questions on phone sourcing. I hope you stop by.

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